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Discussion: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
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MetalHunter |
It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 25 2011, 8:34 PM EDT
My friends from Yet Another Forum disagree about the "Old Stark incident." You know, the Terminator arrived by mistake in the 1920s, who was killed by Cameron.The problem is that we do not know the future importance of the governor who would be killed. It is possible for him to be a future collaborationist leader in relationship with Skynet, something like Marshal Pétain, the Chief of State of Vichy France, in relationship with Nazi Germany. Then, maybe John Connor was very interested in his execution, a priori? It should be recalled that Mr. Stark has done exceptional in its integration into the society of the 1920s, knowing how to work with people. Which implies a solid experience in working with people, even before being sent back in time. This experience could get only one fighting in Resistance. However, Cameron killed "Mr. Stark" without her to inform about its existence, Sarah and (Young) John Connor. What looks like Cameron hiding important things from them ... My friends believe that "old Stark incident" have a very important role in revealing the true nature of Cameron. More specifically, in this case, Cameron acted just as agent of Skynet. Moreover, they believe they have found many more indications that Cameron does not come from the Resistance camp. But all in due time ... Do you find this valuable?
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I.Join |
1. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 25 2011, 11:25 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 25 2011, 11:26 PM EDT
"My friends from Yet Another Forum disagree about the "Old Stark incident." You know, the Terminator arrived by mistake in the 1920s, who was killed by Cameron.Hey, it's a long time I don't see you here, welcome back... I see you found another place to discuss interesting points about the show (link, pls). Yes, it's possible that Stark was sent by the resistance and that Cameron did a mistake destroying him, despite someone believes to recognize his name on the blood wall (why should Stark have used a known name? It's hard to believe that the guy who wrote on that wall knew the name the T-888 had used if he was a Skynet agent, IMO), I see the points and the date error could be justified by the first attempts the resistance made with the TDE. If Stark had been with humans for a long time in the future, he hadn't killed so many people to get the money. Actually, he hadn't to kill them anyway, because he didn't know how deeply he was changing the future killing those people... Cameron didn't inform Sarah because she thought to be right, didn't need them and didn't want them to risk. Also she didn't want to reveal how she had found Stark. Cameron does not come from the Resistance camp... now I'm curious... Do you find this valuable? |
termi-ninja-tor |
2. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 25 2011, 11:35 PM EDT
"My friends believe that "old Stark incident" have a very important role in revealing the true nature of Cameron. More specifically, in this case, Cameron acted just as agent of Skynet."Why? Do you find this valuable? |
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morded |
3. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 27 2011, 6:34 AM EDT
"My friends believe that "old Stark incident" have a very important role in revealing the true nature of Cameron. More specifically, in this case, Cameron acted just as agent of Skynet."That makes no sense. If she was an agent of Skynet she'd kill John. It's that simple... there wouldn't be any convoluted plots. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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I.Join |
4. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 27 2011, 12:39 PM EDT
"That makes no sense. If she was an agent of Skynet she'd kill John. It's that simple... there wouldn't be any convoluted plots."I think he meant "as a Skynet's agent had acted" (so that she destroyed a potential enemy not thinking too much about), not that she was actually a Skynet's agent... Do you find this valuable? |
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termi-ninja-tor |
5. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 27 2011, 5:13 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 27 2011, 5:21 PM EDT
It seems the OP has taken a vacation.I can imagine three scenarios for this story. A. Governor Wyman is a good guy and Stark was sent by Skynet to kill him. This was thwarted by Cameron. I think this is what the showmakers expected us to believe. B. Governor Wyman is a bad guy and Stark was a reprogrammed T888 that the Resistance sent back to kill Wyman. Cameron mistakenly thought Stark was sent by Skynet and prevented him from completing his mission. This is what I.Join's post #4 seems to offer as a potential interpretation. C. Governor Wyman is a bad guy and Stark was a reprogrammed T888 that the Resistance sent back to kill Wyman. Cameron is an agent of Skynet who knew this and acted to prevent Stark from completing his mission. This seems to be what the OP is alluding to. I interpret the story as A. While B is possible, I would like to hear some supporting evidence beyond just saying that there is no definitive evidence against it because we do not know why Governor Wyman was targeted by Stark. C is not credible, as morded's post #3 made abundantly clear. [edit add] By the way, the bloody wall list included names of Skynet's targets, like Bedell and Dr. Sherman, so Stark's name on the wall might have meant that he was a target instead of being a terminator sent back on assignment. Do you find this valuable? |
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I.Join |
6. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 28 2011, 2:26 PM EDT
"It seems the OP has taken a vacation.Yes, "B" is what I think MetalHunter wanted to say. I think there's no major difference between A and B, at least not about Cameron. At most B could imply that Resistance's TDE was a bit defective/on development... this could mean that Stark was one of the first attempts, maybe the resistance gave him this marginal duty only to check if the TDE had worked... Anyway, Stark's actions in the '20s let me think about both A and B: whoever he was working for (Skynet or the resistance) he was really really risking to avoid them to exist in the new timeline... Who I would focus on, about SMM, is right Stark, that is so new (immature) to think that the only way to complete his mission was doing it as they told him: he could have hidden elsewhere till 2009 and killed the governor in another way. Someone could suggest that it was important to kill him in such ceremony, but it had happened anyway (in a different place)... 1. I agree. I don't think Stark was really important for the whole story, he was only important for the episode. 2. Interesting... but how did Skynet know Stark's name? I'll check again, but I remember that something on the wall could have been "deciphered" as Stark, but that I had never actually read "Stark" there if I hadn't known such surname was in the show... everyone sees what (s)he wants to see and human brain is very good with associations, so I could also think that someone thinks to have read "Stark". I'll check again. What's OP? Opener? Do you find this valuable? |
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termi-ninja-tor |
7. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 28 2011, 2:43 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 28 2011, 2:53 PM EDT
"What's OP? Opener?"OP has two possible meanings, and the intended usage should be inferred from the context. OP may mean "original post" referring to the first post that started the thread. OP may mean "original poster" referring to the author of the first post that started the thread. Below is a pic of the bloody wall. Although the image is incomplete, you can see the word "Stark" on the left hand side, third from the top. The entry seems to say "STARK 2007 LK." http://images.wikia.com/terminator/images/1/1e/Wellswall.png [edit add] Skynet has the privilege of naming the T888s that are skinned. Of course Skynet will know this T888 by its name "Stark." It is possible but not necessary that the T888 was named after the man that it was skinned to emulate -- we don't know and it does not matter. Do you find this valuable? |
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termi-ninja-tor |
8. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 29 2011, 9:33 AM EDT
"Someone could suggest that it was important to kill him in such ceremony, but it had happened anyway (in a different place)..."You do realize that we don't even know if Governor Wyman was the target. Stark's target might have been another person on stage next to the Governor during the speech. Like the instruction to Stark could have been, "shoot all the people sitting to the left of the Governor during this speech." Know when you are making an assumption, and be careful with your assumptions. TSCC is defined on what we do NOT know almost as much as what we do know. Do you find this valuable? |
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I.Join |
9. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Oct 29 2011, 1:16 PM EDT
"1. OP has two possible meanings, and the intended usage should be inferred from the context.1. OK, thank you. In the image I read "STARK 3,007 LK" (LK could be there for "lake", so maybe it's an address) 2. So we could also suppose that T-Stark was made to emulate a real Myron Stark and that his mission was to take his place to kill someone... interesting. Maybe his plan was to kill someone at random to get real Stark to be accused, making him lose credibility... maybe he had killed no-one, he had to shot and run... 3. Yes, you're right! I also think that not everything was known to the writers: I suppose that real purposes of T-Stark weren't relevant, since the episode was more about Cameron... but I could be wrong... Do you find this valuable? |
Oz-n-Ks |
10. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 6 2012, 10:01 PM EST
"You do realize that we don't even know if Governor Wyman was the target. Stark's target might have been another person on stage next to the Governor during the speech. Like the instruction to Stark could have been, "shoot all the people sitting to the left of the Governor during this speech."I think Cameron may have acted correctly by stopping Stark from killing Wyman and I am making an assumption here , because of what appears to be the first word at the top left of the bloody wall list, just above Juan Lopez. It appears that Wells may have started to write the word" KILL" but decide not to use it , crossed it out and changed it to the word "STOP" while dying in the living room. Going from the word Kill to Stop, would change the whole context of the list, as to what was to be done about the items/people on the list. Since T-Stark and T-Greenway were not alive and could not be Killed, the word Stop would be more applicable. Do you find this valuable? |
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Oz-n-Ks |
11. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 12:06 AM EST
" I started to looked at this as a set of instructions that the writer's (JF) wanted the audience to do something. So I broke it down like this. Stark...Go to the Self Made Man EP. 3007....Go 30 minutes 7 seconds into the EP.....30:07 LK...text for "Look"! So I did and it drops you right into the opening of the scene where they turn on the movie projector to watch the woman's account of what happened in the Speak Easy when Stark bubbled in. If you listen to the woman's interview she speaks about 3 different things. What happened when Stark arrived , her boy friend and getting drunk . What would be the significance of 1925? ( if the writers didn't simply pull the date out of the air) It was the height of prohibition which was both a social and political issue of the time, as drinking is today (minus the 18th Amendment). I then applied the social/political context to Greenway, P. Alto, Dr Sherman and Alpine Fields and there seems to be a social/political message buried within these EPs. Juan Lopez Wallace Brooks Devon (I cant make the last name) tr NO C84 0419100633 Are unknowns since the suits at Fox got nervous and pulled the plug on where JF was going, for these items/people. I was looking at the cast list on IMDB and noticed that 2 characters/actors are know missing from the list. Mr Harris.......The gu"IDAN"ce counselor ......School facility sexually messing with students? Again a social/political issue! Bobo....Juan Lopez? (the actor that played Bobo was Histanic) The guy that was bullying Morris in auto shop?.. Again a social/political issue of our day. Do you find this valuable? |
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termi-ninja-tor |
12. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 12:55 AM EST
Hey, Oz, we can count on you for careful detective work.So Governor Wyman was certainly a political figure, which fits in with the social/political theme you found. But can we figure out why he was targeted for termination? It's not enough simply to be a political figure, right? Do you find this valuable? |
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Oz-n-Ks |
13. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 2:39 AM EST
"Right now Gov. Wyman is a puzzle to me. BUT!! The only thing I can think of, would be the disruption in the governmental chain of command for the state of California . Who's to say that there are not T-assassins in the 49 other states, set to take out all the Gov's on or about the same date. Wyman (if he is the target) is taken out Dec. 31 2010 ......J-day is just 3 1/2 months later and the state government would still be in a bit of disarray at the time of J-Day. Think how it would be if it was all 50 governors, at or close to the same time....Total Chaos!!! All the way up to J-Day! Now if Wyman was not the target and Stark was to be there to save him ....then Cameron is working for Skynet , but all depends on who sent Stark...... Was it Skynet before JC destroyed its TDE ,or JC with his new Jet Powered TDE. TNT here is a question for you. What do ......T-1001/Goodenow .....Allison/Cameron (AfP,ep) ...and T-1001/ Weaver ....have in common? Do you find this valuable? |
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Oz-n-Ks |
14. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 4:29 AM EST
| Post edited: Jan 7 2012, 4:52 AM EST
I need to amend the above a little bit! After having a cup of coffee and pondering TNT's question for a while. Putting Gov. Wyman into a social/political context , would depend on his personal character and values as a person and politician. Something we did not see in the EP or entire series! If he was corrupt he is most likely working with Skynet and JC sent Stark to take him out. That would also make Cameron a mole! If he is not corrupt and getting in the way of Skynet's plans, then Skynet sent Stark back! That would make Cameron's actions correct and she is not a mole! You know I also noticed on the IMDB TSCC cast list, 2 female actors names and roles that were missing, infact they never were on the cast lists of IMDB or TSCC ...or were they?.....The old Charles Laughton movie ..Witness for the Prosecution... comes to mind! Excellent old movie with a real twist in its last 15 minutes.......( a bit of dialog from it)......Would You Like to Give Us a Kiss Luv? Do you find this valuable? |
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termi-ninja-tor |
15. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 8:06 AM EST
"TNT here is a question for you.Hmm. These were all terminators who replaced women who are dead. If we assume Mrs. Weaver was killed by the T1001, then we can say they all killed these women, respectively. I would also say that they assumed these identities while not working as agents of Skynet but were Third Faction instead, assuming we believe that Cameron was telling the truth to Allison when she said she was against Skynet. All three were seeking to be friends with humans -- the LMT/Goodnow did not succeed because of what the humans did on the sub, but Cameron and Weaver term both became close to humans. That's all I came up with. With respect to the Governor Wyman question, obviously there is not enough information. I can offer a speculation that Governor Wyman may have shut down some state program that Skynet wanted, as an austerity measure resulting from the California budget crisis. Perhaps another man would have decided to spare the program and cut some other program. (I am assuming there were programs like ARTIE that Skynet wanted to see completed.) Do you find this valuable? |
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I.Join |
16. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 9:04 AM EST
"1.Right now Gov. Wyman is a puzzle to me. BUT!!1. The idea to kill all the governors in the same day could justify Stark's idea to wait for exactly that date to kill him... (assuming that the governor was the target) If Skynet had wanted to generate chaos he (or it, as you prefer) would have sent 50 terminators instructed to appear as if they were (say) Arab to kill all the governors: thinking to another big terrorist attack to the US, the president would have been forced by the CIA to increase the alert level. An higher alert level could have been useful for Skynet to gain access to more strategical resources... actually this remembers me "War Games" and the DefCon, but DefCon should have nothing to do with terrorism... 2. As I said, if Stark was there to save the Governor, Cameron probably made a mistake (thinking that he was there to kill Wyman) and killed Stark believing to be doing something good. 3. If you want my reply, Cameron was an earlier way to copy Allison, so I think that she has been built BEFORE the introduction of the T-100x LMT technology. It's not impossible that Cameron wasn't lying to Allison, so that she was actually part of a group wanting peace: in this case, she could have not been older that the T-100x technology, but simply such innovation wasn't available to the group It's common to accept that the T-100x that killed Goodnow is the same we know as Weaver, but there's nothing confirming this for sure. I personally think they are the same or, at least, they work in th same group (maybe they're from the same "defective" stock with the tendency to rebel to Skynet and do what they want) Do you find this valuable? |
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I.Join |
17. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 9:13 AM EST
| Post edited: Jan 7 2012, 9:17 AM EST
"1. I need to amend the above a little bit! After having a cup of coffee and pondering TNT's question for a while.1. Too late 2. The idea of corruption seems good, but JC, having the benefit of a TDE, would have sent someone to find the proof of the corruption, acting months before such date. If that was John who sent Stark, he'd have known that he was leaving California (Skynet's state) without government right before JD... IMO 3. I'll watch that movie, thank you for the suggestion...IMDB? Do you find this valuable? |
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I.Join |
18. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 12:57 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 7 2012, 1:15 PM EST
Damn wettaint...
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I.Join |
19. RE: It was Old Stark, indeed, an agent of Skynet? Was Cameron right there?
Jan 7 2012, 12:59 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 7 2012, 1:05 PM EST
Damn wettaint...
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