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Discussion: Love, sex and terminators

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R.Daneel_Olivaw	Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 9:33 AM EDT I know this discussion has occured before, and that some participants were thrilled by the idea, and others disgusted. Posts became heated, moderators stepped in and threads were deleted. Perhaps in the latest incarnation of this wiki's membership and moderation, we are capable of having this conversation. In light of recent posts by member Dr._Allison_Cameron expressing nostalgia for deleted posts, I thought I'd try again. While I am neither thrilled nor disgusted by the idea of humans sharing love and physical intimacy with other non-human sapients, I feel that it has no place in the terminator franchise. Assuming that terminators are capable of such intimacy changes them in my eyes to the extent that I can no longer accept that they were built by skynet for purposes of infiltration and assasination. Bear in mind that I am not trying to argue 'what the story said' or 'what the writers meant'. I am only stating that I, RDO, feel that it stretches my willingness to accept the parameters of the story to breaking. Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: AI love sex
Losa78	1. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 9:50 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 30 2010, 12:02 PM EDT "Perhaps in the latest incarnation of this wiki's membership and moderation, we are capable of having this conversation." Well said, RDO, well said. I'm also sure it will be easier to carry this topic nowadays and keep it civil. Much of the radicalness of the old is gone from here these days, so I have good expectations too. So everybody, no flaming, dissing, insulting, mockery or overall vulgarity, please. Everyone's points of view are to be respected. Carry on. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
termi-ninja-tor	2. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 10:11 AM EDT Well, we never saw a terminator having sex on the show. The closest we got was Vick term and Barbara Chamberlain. However, even though we did not see it, sex was strongly implied. Did you get that impression also? Next closest was probably Weaver term and Nelson, the supervisor from Serrano Point. Weaver term took the shape of a bar skank and killed Nelson outside the bar after they started kissing. No sex was implied, but I have no doubt that Weaver term's liquid metal body could be shaped to be anatomically correct if she wanted. She clearly could go all the way if she wanted to. In both instances, the sexual component of what these terminators did was important to their infiltration effectiveness. It is easy to think that the ability to have sex was a Skynet design parameter for terminator infiltrators, especially those with more complex missions. Although we humans consider the sex act to be special, perhaps from Skynet's point of view it is just another biological function that a compleat infiltrator should be capable of. Like being able to cry when needed, which we saw Cam do in the halfway house counselor's office. I can understand your aversion to the concept, given your view of the franchise. Certainly there was nothing in T1 or T2 to indicate that terminators would have sex. In the movies, the terminators' infiltration requirements were much simpler -- just get close enough to kill or protect. It seems to me that in TSCC conscious choices were made to suggest terminators could have sex. It was not necessary for Vick to be married; they could have written the story with an office buddy instead of a wife. And Weaver term could have killed Nelson any old way, without resorting to a come on. And yet they did, perhaps to hint at what Cameron could do. I agree that allowing sex was a questionable call, quite divergent from the movies. But it was their choice. Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Cameron.	3. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 11:18 AM EDT John need to understand how it works. This body! [remove bra] [pulls a knife] Post reply Do you find this valuable?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	4. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 11:44 AM EDT "Well, we never saw a terminator having sex on the show (etc) <char limit>" I actually do not have a problem with the concept of infiltrator models being capable of sexual activities. Many humans fool each other about how much they are enjoying the act. Both men and women routinely fake their satisfaction for the benefit of a partners ego, so it is not so far fetched that someone would fall for a passable humanoid robot. I knew this sailor who went to Thailand...ah, never mind. But infiltration is the only motive I would see a terminator performing such acts. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	5. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 5:12 PM EDT We agree that sex is not love. I accept that John can love Cameron. She is very pretty and she is his. There are different kinds of love: partner love, parent and child love, and even love for abstract concepts, like love for one's country. People are willing to die for the object of their love. Cameron's mission to protect John may be closest to parental love. Certainly Cameron must have detailed files describing human love. She can understand the behavior patterns associated with being in love, the mental patterns that underlie them, and the biological responses that go along, like heightened sensitivity, elevated heart rate, and perspiration. If she wants, she can probably develop subroutines that suggest mimicking those behavior patterns while taking her through the computational equivalent of reviewing the mental patterns. She could even allow the subroutines to temporarily take over some of her subsystems to provide some physical analog to our biological responses. If she were to do all this, could we say she then experiences love? Or is she still just mimicking the emotion, even though the mimicking is more complete. At this point, I would say it's in the semantics. Like if a dog could experience the mental, behavioral, and biological aspects of love, would you say the dog could love? (Like a new mother dog is feeling love for her puppies?) How about a bird for its hatchlings? Or a bee for its hive or queen? Or is love an experience reserved only for humans? If you choose this definition, then by definition, Cameron cannot experience love. It's all in the semantics. Post reply 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	6. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 6:53 PM EDT Love, while difficult to define, is very important to humans. A huge segement of our culture is devoted to it. There are songs. poems and stories about it dating back as far as the written and spoken word. It is an obvious and powerful force among us. But why do we have it? Wether we were created outright by a higher being, or are the product of a complicated evolution, this powerful force must have a reason. Most of our motivations are based on preservation of self or society. We learn to love our families, friends and neighbors so that we will be selfless in support of them. This makes our societies stronger, and thus aids ourselves as members of those societies. While this is not true for every individual, it is widespread enough so that it is true for most societies. So now imagine a sapient being who was never designed to be part of human society. Even if (s)he were/became capable of love as we conceive of it, what would her motivation be for experiencing it on our behalf? or on anyones? I expect it is possible that Cameron could willfully reprogram herself to aproximate the human condition of love, but I fail to see where it would benefit or fullfill her, or increase her effectiveness or quality of life. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
meanoldmoe	7. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 7:17 PM EDT Vic may have had sex, but it was so he could remain in his infiltration and not be exposed as an imposter. He did it because he needed to "fool" the woman. She thought it was her loving husband and so would think it an act of love. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	8. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 9:42 PM EDT "So now imagine a sapient being who was never designed to be part of human society. Even if (s)he were/became capable of love as we conceive of it, what would her motivation be for experiencing it on our behalf? or on anyones?" Motivation? I suppose the motivation would have to be that it helps her complete her mission successfully. And presumably, her mission includes infiltration aspects. So if she feels that being able to experience the equivalent of love patterns would help her infiltrate and complete her mission, then she would at least give it a try. Or maybe she might try it purely on an experimental basis. Maybe after hearing a human praise the positive feelings of being in love. Maybe she might realize that John was in love with her (if it were to be so), and then someone tells her that love is much better when both parties are in love. So she might be motivated to put herself in love also. I was surprised when Cameron danced ballet in her room (with Derek watching in secret). I did not understand why she did that. But I accepted that she can have motivations that were beyond my understanding. And so with experiencing love, also. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	9. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 30 2010, 10:12 PM EDT " I was surprised when Cameron danced ballet in her room (with Derek watching in secret). I did not understand why she did that. But I accepted that she can have motivations that were beyond my understanding. And so with experiencing love, also." That is a very persuasive argument. I guess I could see her having 'motivations beyond my understanding'. Actually, since I started this thread I have thought about it, and can imagine some scenarios where she would attempt to embrace such a human concept. She was defeated and almost destroyed by a human mother and her son. She must be studying the dynamic between them, and realizes that their special relationship enhances their ability as a team. Such a concept would be something she would explore. She would also realize that her relationship to John would never be mother to son, and so she may try to adopt another traditional human role. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
t5000	10. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 31 2010, 4:37 AM EDT Assuming that terminators are capable of such intimacy changes them in my eyes to the extent that I can no longer accept that they were built by skynet for purposes of infiltration and assasination...................... there are only 2 terminators in tscc who were not like your view of standard T's which is correct. Only Cameron and CW were shown to be unique in their mental development so that they might take on human attributes like love ,anger , vengeance, possesiveness. Cameron clearly was possessive ! she was with John and with her purple jacket, and her room. that is a human attribute which means you like something and consider it to be yours, and this is not something a terminator would do. but with no restrictions on learning and being around humans it is bound to have the effect of T's taking on human attributes. they cant be just like humans but they could be similar in some ways. as for love, it is a extension of liking and possessing someone essentially. so eventually they could love someone. as for sex that gets more complicated, as to whether a T like cam or cw would actually want or enjoy sex. they might engage in it to please a human they liked or were using, but want or enjoy would be way down the road for them. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
MetalShifter	11. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 31 2010, 8:09 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 31 2010, 9:42 AM EDT I basically share the opinion of RDO. I also think it’s a good idea to give such a discussion another try as the topic is indeed interesting. As many other SciFi Authors explored this topic in details ;-) I think it is not so far fetched in the terminator universe as some hard liners believed. I would even say it seems logical to me that “high end” infiltrators are capable of sexual techniques as it could turn out to be necessary for their missions. It’s also logical that Skynet builds female infiltrators that are “fully functional” as most of the leaders of the human resistance are men and the “savior of mankind” and his primary target is in fact a man. Let’s look at the facts: It takes the same effort to build a male cyborg like a female model. But the male Terminator will make his way through the soldiers most likely by force as the female, froggy looking ... oops … ;-) I mean cute and a bit fragilely looking bot does some soldiers “a favour” to reach it’s goal. To make myself clear: I neither think that such a bot will be able to feel and to love, BUT just performing sexual intercourse would not be a problem. Learning to dance isn’t more difficult either! ;-) I the following point I may have different opinion to RDO: I think a longer relationship between such a cyborg and a human man could be possible! Let’s look at an examples for a human relationship to understand what I want to say: He likes her body. She likes his money. He jumps her bones. She jumps his credit card. He is more interested in having a hot girlfriend than someone to feel connected to or talk to. She doesn’t care as she is more interested in his money than in finding her soul mate. Result: They marry and either get divorced or get old. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
MetalShifter	12. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 31 2010, 8:10 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 31 2010, 9:44 AM EDT See what I am getting at? Is the above relationship really this far fetched that you think such a relationship will never work or happen? Of course not! A lot of relationships result in dependencies. Someone has something, which another one needs. (I don’t want to start a discussion about “What is love?”) Now replace the “she” in the example relationship with a female infiltrator. She has a long time mission which consists of more than one target and needs a human partner with certain social connections or abilities. He is feed up with jerking off in the shower and thinks she is the hottest woman in the world. She gives him sex (and of course get’s no orgasm like a lot of human women do, but “she” will not complain about ;-)) and he helps her completing her mission. (if he gets to know the mission is not important) As I once said: Everything is possible, if you get the right story writer! And what did they get? Friedman! And what did we get? A cancellation after season 2! ;-))) Cool, isn’t it? ;-))))) Sorry, I couldn’t resist! ;-))) -MS Post reply Do you find this valuable?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	13. RE: Love, sex and terminators Aug 31 2010, 6:23 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 31 2010, 6:24 PM EDT Classic MS, classic. You had to get the F.R.O.G. stuff in there! Still, some good points by you and T500 as well. This thread is going much better than the old ones, I am learning much more now that every other reply is not " Eff you luddite!" : ) Seriously, I see that my original position is being well refuted, I postulated that terminators should not be capable of intimacy, and I am being forced to admit that perhaps machines like Cameron, TWeaver and especially John Henry are not terminators at all. Maybe we should be discussing the progress of AI advancement through a evolution-like process. There was a reason John Connor brought up the technological singularity. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Dr._Allison_Cameron	14. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 1 2010, 1:06 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 1 2010, 1:07 PM EDT "Perhaps in the latest incarnation of this wiki's membership and moderation, we are capable of having this conversation. In light of recent posts by member Dr._Allison_Cameron expressing nostalgia for deleted posts, I thought I'd try again." Thanks for giving me a mental nudge to ask Gusar for a copy of my posts on the deleted Liquid Metal Terminator Sex thread. Gusar had the foresight to save the thread, and he was gracious enough to share it with me. Thanks, Goose! I pulled out the posts that I wanted to show and put them at the bottom of my profile page: http://www.sarahconnorfans.com/account/Dr._Allison_Cameron Hope you find them amusing. I also hope they don't result in a problem again with the mods. (heh) Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
redcon	15. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 1 2010, 1:39 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 1 2010, 1:43 PM EDT "Hope you find them amusing. ... Fear and desire. Pain and pleasure. " Pleasure is pain ... :D Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Jenkehs	16. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 1 2010, 4:54 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 1 2010, 4:54 PM EDT "Hope you find them amusing. I also hope they don't result in a problem again with the mods. (heh)" Yup, it's all good . . no worries :) Profiles are personal; it's better on your page, than in a public thread. This thread is okay ~ continue on! (within reason of course :P) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	17. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 1 2010, 10:24 PM EDT "Pain and pleasure." Interesting juxtaposition of opposites. Particularly appropriate in this thread where we are talking about killing machines that can make love. And the rationale for their ability to make love is that it makes them more effective as killing machines. And so the two opposites are inseparably intertwined, connected by a logic that defies the emotional sentimentality that we usually attach to killing versus loving. tch. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
MetalHunter	18. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 4 2010, 1:33 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 4 2010, 6:31 PM EDT Well, mixing love, sex and Infiltrators can do strange results... Hint: Something is veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrry wrong if your new girlfriend use this method for makeup: Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
ShelterWolf	19. RE: Love, sex and terminators Sep 5 2010, 7:53 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 5 2010, 7:53 PM EDT Ahem, I leave for a few days and all this happens. I've given deep thought to the reasons that Cameron allowed herself to be dismanted in the last ep: She knew that she could never be a complete woman to John, so she put him in a situation that allowed him to find Allison. As far as love and cyborgs, love and hate is based on pleasure and pain. We develop personalities according to the way we experience a world of pleasure and pain - among other social thingys. I assume the way a cyborg experiences pleasure and pain is quite different than how a human would. Therefore, if a cyborg developed a personality with needs and desires, they would have to be based on the same physiology and anatomy to be human in nature. Unfortunately, I don't believe Cameron had all the necessary parts to feel truly human, so she knew she could never really "BE" with John, but she knew that Allison could. Truly benevolent on Cameron's part, I would say. but it sucks to not get a weekly dose of TSCC so we could discuss even more human/cyborg ships. BTW: would you do it with a larva bot? Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?

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Location: Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles Discussion Forum

Discussion: Love, sex and terminators

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