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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 7:25 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 7:25 PM EDT
Why? It was brought to my attention in another thread that somefans look at LF as a hero, bc he brought us TSCC.

I'd like to get some idea of how many T and TSCC fans think this also - for what ever reason.

This is not to say that you cannot also have some idea that TSCC could not have been handled better, or still be on the air.

This is also not to say the your vote here is soley because you love the show: it is assumed that bc you ARE here, this is a given.

So cast the first vote: Yes! JF brought us TSCC, which gave us more of T after T2 and Uncle Bob. Sarah is alone with John, and she is the #8 ass-kicker of all time, at this point. (#2 in my book, only behind Bruce Lee).

JF gave us Cameron: the single most interesting sci fi TV character since Mr. Spock, IMO.

Bringing Derek in gave us a taste of the orignial Kyle fighting in T1, raw, rugged and prvidinga sense of what JDay and the T mythos is al about.

CW was the creeply and delicious LMT, with Shirley owning that role.

Savanah steals the show - only bc Summer wasn't IN it as much as she should have been!

At times TSCC was some of the best writing on TV.

These are just of a few of the pluses, I could go on, but I'd like your input (if you'd care to provide it.

Note: I am making a new thread so as not to hijack someone else's.

Thoughts?
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kaotic
kaotic
1. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 7:38 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 7:38 PM EDT
He's no hero--not even close.

He gave us TSCC (my second favorite TV show) and that gives him the title of being my second favorite show runner. That's the only title he gets from me.

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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
2. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 7:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 7:44 PM EDT
"He's no hero--not even close.

He gave us TSCC (my second favorite TV show) and that gives him the title of being my second favorite show runner. That's the only title he gets from me.

"
Is he yur 2nd fav bc he brought the show, or bc he is the 2nd best at running a show, in your opinion?
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kaotic
kaotic
3. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 7:57 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 8:17 PM EDT
"Is he yur 2nd fav bc he brought the show, or bc he is the 2nd best at running a show, in your opinion?"
Well, it's a mixture of both of those really.

Just like Ron Moore, Josh Friedman - imo - is one hell of a story teller and has that ability to cause the viewer (me) to become so obsessed with the story and characters that it causes a viewer (me again) to think about them all the time.

ETA: Just to elaborate, Ron Moore is #1 and JF is #2 encase you didn't figure that out. :)

But neither of them are heroes; I don't see how they could be.
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
4. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 8:35 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 8:35 PM EDT
"Well, it's a mixture of both of those really.

Just like Ron Moore, Josh Friedman - imo - is one hell of a story teller and has that ability to cause the viewer (me) to become so obsessed with the story and characters that it causes a viewer (me again) to think about them all the time.

ETA: Just to elaborate, Ron Moore is #1 and JF is #2 encase you didn't figure that out. :)

But neither of them are heroes; I don't see how they could be."
I like Ron Moore bc he makes up a bible, and devises details to flesh out the entire universe of the story, even if he doesn't use all the material.

Its like a photo that we see what is in the frame, but the photog has set up the shot far and wide so as to give it depth.

This is quantum levels above JF's approach, IMO. JF skips the actual story altogether; gives ambiguous "details" that are tacked on and left up to interpretation (but enough to keep fans interested/curious); and relies more on surprise for shock value rather than really long, deep plots.

BSG was far and away a better produced show. But even then the finale of BSG sucked!

Go figure...
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
5. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 8:39 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 8:43 PM EDT
From Dictionary.com:

he·ro
   /ˈhɪəroʊ/ Show Spelled[heer-oh] Show IPA
–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.Classical Mythology .
...a.a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
...b.(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
...c.(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
5.hero sandwich.
6.the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

I don't think Josh fits any of these definitions.
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
6. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 8:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 8:51 PM EDT
"From Dictionary.com:

he·ro
   /ˈhɪəroʊ/ Show Spelled[heer-oh] Show IPA
–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.Classical Mythology .
...a.a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
...b.(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
...c.(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
5.hero sandwich.
6.the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

I don't think Josh fits any of these definitions."
Yet, to my way of thinking, to even think you could take on a brand like Terminator, following in the footsteps of Jim C - and then doing so when you are not at your best bc of recent diagnosis of Big C, then not stepping down but pushing forward, is heroic, IMO.

I know I rant a lot about the guy, bu this is really how I feel.

What I rant about I feel just as strongly about...but this is the sid mos flamers don't "get" about me, that I admire the guy and still not like everything he did.
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
7. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 10:15 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 10:15 PM EDT
"Yet, to my way of thinking, to even think you could take on a brand like Terminator, following in the footsteps of Jim C - and then doing so when you are not at your best bc of recent diagnosis of Big C, then not stepping down but pushing forward, is heroic, IMO.

I know I rant a lot about the guy, bu this is really how I feel.

What I rant about I feel just as strongly about...but this is the sid mos flamers don't "get" about me, that I admire the guy and still not like everything he did."
Well ok then.

Taking on a huge task, such as you described Josh doing when he picked up TSCC, makes him either a hero or a fool. (Yes, and the cancer makes the job a bigger challenge.)

To be a hero, he has to either (1) pull it off successfully or (2) sacrifice himself while doing something for the good of others.

An example of (1) would be Ellen Ripley in Aliens. An example of (2) would be Miles Dyson in T2.

In contrast, examples of fools who got in over their heads would be Burke and Gorman in Aliens and Dietz from the Jimmy Carter, who thought he could be a hero for opening the cold box, but he turned out to be a fool instead.

So Josh would not be a hero of the first kind. That is, he did not pull off his huge task successfully. The show got canceled.

But maybe Josh could be a hero of the second kind. I mean, even though the show got canceled and he lost his job, he brought good entertainment to a certain target audience.

I don’t know about everyone else, but I can say that I enjoyed the show, and pretty much every episode. Admittedly, some more than others, but they were all entertaining. And I enjoyed the premise, especially Cameron, which was wholly his creation. I was OK with Sarah, too; the “crazy Sarah” episodes did not really bother me. I liked all the other characters and the story lines, although early John Connor and some of Riley’s behavior were less than completely thrilling to me.

Because the show was canceled and we are left high and dry, it is tempting to go over post mortems and be critical. I try not to dwell on what-could-have-been. I don’t have such strong opinions about how well Josh stuck with the Terminator ethos as established in T1 and T2. I’m OK with what we got and that’s it.

He can be a hero if you think he is.
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The1Russter
The1Russter
8. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 10:53 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 9 2010, 10:06 AM EDT
By the definition of 'hero' JF does not fall into that category. He is a writer and producer, hired to do one thing create TSCC. He had to answer to many bosses and had to make many compromises to create TSCC. Do I like every plot thread, or like very episode I saw - no. But TSCC was by far & wide some of the best drama on TV and it took the characters in new directions. I think if he hadn't, the people complaining about what he did would be complaining instead that he just did a TV remake of T1 & 2. I'm glad we got something different. Does that make JF a hero - no. What makes JF a hero is, that we got what we did despite FOX and WB and Halcyon executives on his back telling him what they wanted. You know the phrase "Too many cooks..." in this case it was "Too many executives....." We can be glad that we got what we did, which was pretty damn good in my book.

EDIT: removed erroneous word
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t5000
t5000
9. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 6 2010, 11:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 6 2010, 11:26 PM EDT
josh isnt a hero , but he could have been. If he had told the fans what he had planned for S-3, answered some key questions, communicated more with fans, been able to take the criticisim, and joined the campaign to get the show back or do a movie.
even if he thought it would never happen he could have campaigned a little and given us info. as for time, if he has time to write weird blogs and is kinda unemployed he should have a little time each week that he could have used for this.
if he had been more involved with fans there would be a larger active fan base right now, and more chance of a movie.
Instead he chose to be bitter and pout about the show failing, and ignore the effort to renew it in some format. he gave up, heroes dont give up.
that is why john & sarah connor were the hero's, they would never give up.
many fans have still not given up.
I think JF had a poor outlook on fans of the show because of the criticism he recieved, I think he thought we were some how responsible for the show failing in ratings, like we were not watching LOL
I think the way the show ended and derek and charlie killed all reflected his bitterness towards fans. I could be wrong but that is how I perceived it
at the time and even now.
If I were in his shoes and fans were doing things like the billboard etc. and still at forums like this, I could not resist talking to them and giving them info or words of encouragement. and I would do a blog to the fans. as far as I know he hasnt done any of this.
so no .......not a hero
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t5000
t5000
10. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 2:04 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 2:04 AM EDT
ok I see kaotic and coach both brought up bsg, so I cant resist this.
coach I find it amazing you you bash JF for not being loyal to the T verse, but yet you think ron moore was loyal to the original bsg verse/canon ?
I watched all of bsg, it was barely ok show, some things I hated, some I liked or thought was very good.
bbut RM took starbuck who was the main good thing abut the original show and turned him into a female that was macho tomboy with many issues and eventually a cylon. they could have had a kara thrace and a starbuck, but chose to get rid of original starbuck.
Same thing for boomer, which could have been a good role for a young black actor, they turned him into a girl too! and also a cylon!
these 2 things made me not like the series and was a gross violation of bsg verse / canon.
again I liked sharon/ grace park, but she should not have been boomer.
they never explained in the 4 years how cylons went from machine to humans , or really even why they attacked the 13 colonies. there seemed to be no real purpose to it.
there was some action in bsg but for most part it was similar drama to what we got on tscc only not as good.
many things were never explained and some were just left behind .
like for example how did baltar see and talk to the 6 ? was he crazy ? he was never shown to be a cylon. that went on thru whole show and was never explained.
they had a cylon detector which never detected any cylons, even though several on board. when they decided to reveal the other cylons, it was awful that they were all on board galactica, and at same time we were told the one cylon knew this but yet for years had tried to destroy galactica.
They made this stuff up as they went along and 1/2 of it never made sense.
I did like the baltar character the most, and also sharon , and liked colnel tigh and his wife till they poked out his eye had him kill his wife, and then made him a cylon!
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t5000
t5000
11. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 2:10 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 2:10 AM EDT
bsg cont.
To me tscc was much better show than bsg and more consistent with T verse than bsg was with it's verse.
I think JF outdid RM and had Tscc been on cable from start and got 4 seasons, would have blown away bsg.
bsg also had many episodes that were just dark and depressing and boring, some made desert cantos look like a very good ep.
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
12. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 5:46 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 5:46 AM EDT
I think BSG was ground breaking in the new format it presented.

Taking an old rip-off of Stars Wars for V and making it into a relevant platform for social reform was brilliant IMO. It provided looks into social and cultural issues that TV hadn't seen much before other than shows like The Wire and Third Watch.

It also took a brand that was fluff and gave it not only an edge, but teeth. This was not yo mama's BSG!

I watched BSG when I was young so am a fan too, but I allowed the lisence Ro Moore took.

Once theyset up the format, all involved in the project really became family: a unit. The actors were allowed to create and provide input. The table was open. They all realy wanted to make it work, and set aside ego forthe good of the whole.

And by and large it worked, IMO.
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
13. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 5:52 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 5:52 AM EDT
I loved the dark, gritty, cloed in feeling that BSG had. It made you feel the desparate, chased feeling they must have had...and the demi-documenary film style set a new tone.

Then all the"old is new" legacy (stale) technology they used on a old "high-tech" spaceship...wow.

Dug Starbuck and Boomer, but Kirk was better at chasing tail on Star Trek, and Starbuck I think was outdid by Face on The A Team. Boomer was like Link on The Mod Squad but he didn't dive over a car every ep to catch a bad guy so what good is he.

If you watch the Original V the d cheezy much better and had better Big Bads: the women villians are a treat!!
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
14. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 6:09 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 6:09 AM EDT
The new BSG is a revision of an older concept IMO, like the latest Star Trek movie is.

yeah, Starbuck and Boomer and 6...

I LOVE Boomer! Completely charmed by her doe eyes and luscuious lips. Linda hamilton as SC had the exact same effect for the exact same reason on me so thanks for reminding me Im a complete fanboy! Yum.

Some things not explained but then T has naked people coming thru time for one liner reason.

Sci fi is really speculative fiction. It i not Scietific American where peers expect you to post your findings and WILL inspect and test your hypothesis. Fiction. FICTION. Not everything is gonna - nor has to - work.

BSG was a good story, IMO.

Better written than TSCC bc it dleved into "deep" social subjects...

I think JF tied to catch someof the lightning in a bottle that BSG broke ground on, but couldn't quite turn the corner on.

I thinkBSG set a new, very high standard for such things, much like Jim Cameron has done with CGI (twice) and female lead action stars (twice) for everyone. I think TSCC had vision of being the next significant player in this new paradigm genre (did I just invent a new classifiation?).

The cyclons are problematic from the start in the OLD BSG. We dont know much about them there either. but this new BSG did make this sci fi for grown folks, not just kids playing with action figures making ray gun andblow up sounds with their mouths. It immersed you deeper in the Star Wars type space opera but made it a full real universe for adults, not just mere wistful fantasy.
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
15. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 6:27 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 6:27 AM EDT
"bsg cont.
To me tscc was much better show than bsg and more consistent with T verse than bsg was with it's verse.
I think JF outdid RM and had Tscc been on cable from start and got 4 seasons, would have blown away bsg.
bsg also had many episodes that were just dark and depressing and boring, some made desert cantos look like a very good ep."
I think BSG came at us from odd angles, like Capoeira martial arts.

One thing that really surprised m was the shipping. never expected that, and it was the most anyone has devled into this subject IMO.

Baltar. Why even TRY to figure any of that out? the guy set new standards for dastardlness. Just when you thought he couldn't go any further he managed to takethings to a new level, and he had to re0invent himself several times to do it, like Madonna. I'm glad they just didn't kill him off which I expected they'd do when done with his involvement in a plot arc. they even managed to keep him relevant!

But anything he did really can't be explained. Sick puppy. Six in his head? golem with The Ring, perhaps? dunno.

No. BSG did not based its new verse on the old. It created its own canon. but then it did pay some respect to the old, an let you know right up front that it was doing this.

It was a huge gamble and no one knew if it would work with an audience they half expected a backlash...

But the show and approach was SMART that it gained a fan base and to me it this era's Star Trek in the mid 1960's. TSCC can't say that.

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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
16. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 6:35 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 6:35 AM EDT
Also, the new BSG never got away ffrom the original premise of the old show:being chased by killer robots that wiped out the human race and were all that was left and had to hold the survivors together to getthem to an alpha point.

That was their mission. They never made any of the "drama" more important than that, which IMO JF failed at. BSG told BOTH stories; TSCC did not.

TSCC delved little into JDay will kill 3 billion people in one day soon and only ones that might save us are on the run from FBI and scary killer robots no one even knowsabout. This didn't seem to be a priority for these characters or this show. It touched upon it at times but more often they seemed distracted from their main mission so muchso as to seem like it actually got in their way of things they demed more important. Since WHO is important is important t me having all the humans in every major city in th world burned prolly includes US in that number I'd appreciate if Sarah and John could stay focused. But it was not them it was lead writer that was not focused.

TSCC also didn't have much plot development for a season and a half; and lord knowswhat the characters were doing - or why - duringthis time. It gave us great elements, like Cam and support roles, then tossed them into the background or away altogether.

Now BSG had many flaws too.

I didn't like the whole stuck on the planet season. I didn;t like losing the second BSG warship. But they kept us on the edge of our seat throughout the series, and it is hard after over a century of Jules Vernes andeveryone since to do really good, fresh, and NEW science fiction, and although not everything worked in BSG they did accomplish their misson.

Moreover, they had their run, and went out on their own terms. And like Star Trek, Batman, and Stargate, is still spawning spin-offs.

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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
17. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 7 2010, 6:44 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 7 2010, 6:44 AM EDT
All of those brands give us big, broad stroke epic advenures.

TSCC was mostly set in a high school and then a house or too. That's too myopic an approach, IMO, fr a story that has world wide - andworld ending - implications.

So no, I don't put it in the same league as BSG, but I do think it is going in the same direction. I think JF tried to go IN that direction, aware of what BSG had done coming out as a contemporary predicessor.

But TSCC had a brand pedgree second t none. Far less was done of it than BSG (which isn't in the same brand league IMO), Batman, Star Trek, or Batman, to mention a few.

For what it is worth, I think if JF had been a contributing writer, and bc of cancer stepped down and say Joss Whedon stepped in to oversee running the show, TSCC could have been take in the fundamental core directions it needed to be at th top of its game in the entertainment biz, AND be cutting edge in its approaches.

I think this could have rivaled Lost, and for Fox been its next X-Files sci fi drama.
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t5000
t5000
18. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 8 2010, 8:49 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 8 2010, 8:49 AM EDT
Ok I think that if you look at tscc as a reboot or in your words "a revision of an older concept " instead of a direct continuation of T-2 , you might see things differently?
Tscc was not a "movie" continuation of the story, being Tv it had many constraints, and it was a revision.
I think now that what JF should have done is start the show at begining, with T-800 coming back after sarah, that could have been the first 2 eps, then slide to the future , and 2-3 more ep with T-2 story, then get to the part after that. That way the audience would have got the T story they knew with new cast and gradually got to the part where cameron comes back.
I think now that too many saw it as a continuation insstead of a revised version in tv format starting from a odd point, inbetween movie 2 and 3.
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
19. RE: Who thinks JF is a hero?
Aug 8 2010, 1:35 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 8 2010, 1:35 PM EDT
"Ok I think that if you look at tscc as a reboot or in your words "a revision of an older concept " instead of a direct continuation of T-2 , you might see things differently?
Tscc was not a "movie" continuation of the story, being Tv it had many constraints, and it was a revision.
I think now that what JF should have done is start the show at begining, with T-800 coming back after sarah, that could have been the first 2 eps, then slide to the future , and 2-3 more ep with T-2 story, then get to the part after that. That way the audience would have got the T story they knew with new cast and gradually got to the part where cameron comes back.
I think now that too many saw it as a continuation insstead of a revised version in tv format starting from a odd point, inbetween movie 2 and 3."
I actually don't have a problem seeing TSCC as a direct continuation of T2. I thought it followed on fairly smoothly.

Remember, at the end of T2, Cyberdyne was blown up and Miles Dyson was dead. The T1000 and Uncle Bob were both melted down. So far as Sarah and John knew, Skynet will never be created and Judgment Day won't happen.

All they really should bave been worrying about was the FBI.

There was no way for them to know that Andy Goode would make the first Turk based on what he had learned as an intern at Cyberdyne. And it was the first Turk that later won the chess tournament and got taken by the Air Force and became a new Skynet which sent back Cromartie to kill John.
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