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Discussion: A good Jesse Flores

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Enigma6482	A good Jesse Flores Aug 10 2009, 11:44 PM EDT Does anyone think that it is possible for there to be a good Jesse Flores floating around out there in one timeline, version of the future, whatever. The Jesse I'm refering to is the one that Derek speaks about at the end of Today is the Day Part II (You're not my Jesse). Do you think there could have been a Jesse that was loyal to both John, the resistance, possibly Cameron as well as being romantically involved with Derek. And if you repeat the time loop enough would she come back into play as a ally to John. I hope this makes sense as I am currently 1/2 asleep but just had to type this post out. So I could read everyones answers in the morning. Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: None
m1919	1. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 10 2009, 11:52 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 10 2009, 11:53 PM EDT Possibly, if she had somehow known Cameron more personally than she had in Today is the Day Part II. It seemed she only knew her as an acquaintance, and not on civil terms. She may have been brutalized by Skynet, maybe even Cameron herself before she was with the Resistance. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	2. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 3:37 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 4:28 AM EDT It seems that Jesse was a normal Resistance soldier when she first met Derek in the future scene in Alpine Fields. She was from Australia and had come to California on the sub. She said her reprogrammed terminator sub captain, Queeg, was a decent "bloke." In Complications, she tells Derek that she had found out that he had been tortured by Fischer. And I believe that her Derek was. In Today is the Day, Part 1, Jesse remembers her Derek warning her not to trust Queeg just before she goes out on a new mission on the sub. Derek and Jesse were clearly lovers, and Jesse had picked up some of Derek's hatred for metal and distrust of reprogrammed terminators, which may have been instilled in him by his time in a prisoner camp and being tortured by Fischer. On the sub, Jesse's relationship with Queeg had a real breakdown due basically to lack of trust, and she felt compelled to destroy him. Shooting Queeg and scuttling the sub must have been a traumatic development for Jesse. She was not soothed by a rather rough conversation with Cam, who was functionally her superior in rank in the organization. The fairly unpleasant (for Jesse) exchange culminated in her being told by Cam that she had suffered a miscarriage. Again, the result must have been somewhat traumatic for her mentally. And Derek had disappeared on some mysterious and undisclosed mission, another unsettling development for Jesse. These events resulted in Jesse's very negative frame of mind. It appears her unhappiness became directed to pursuing her plan against Cam. And remember she started out apparently supportive of Queeg when she first met Derek. Knowing thus the evolution of her negative attitudes, we can postulate that she wouldn't have felt so negative if certain things had not happened. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	3. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 3:54 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 4:29 AM EDT Specifically, if Derek had not been tortured by Fischer, he might have not been so anti-metal, and he might not have influenced Jesse to be so distrustful of Queeg. Or, if the Third Faction had already decided to join with the Resistance, there would not have been a detour for the sub to pick up the box with the liquid metal terminator inside. The whole issue of the mutiny would not have happened, and Jesse would not have become so traumatized. And she would not have miscarried. Instead, she probably would have had the baby and never felt the anger that motivated her against Cam. Or, even if she had gone through the whole ordeal of the sub, Jesse could have had a better conversation with Cam. Cam could have spoken with her in a more supportive manner, calming her unhappiness, and allaying her concern and shame over shooting Queeg and sinking the sub. And, Cam could have chosen not to tell her about the miscarriage. Jesse would not have known otherwise. The result of such a better conversation could have been that Jesse would not have been so anti-Cam. Or, instead of talking with Cam, Jesse might have met with John Connor, as she had wanted and expected. I believe John could have taken the time to have that conversation with Jesse. If he had, maybe the result would be that Jesse would not have identified Cam as someone she would want to target. Jesse's frame of mind could be quite different. I am sure there are other changes that can be imagined that would have kept Jesse the obedient soldier. Perhaps some of the changes could be fairly minor, as were the last two that I mentioned. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
rref	4. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 4:20 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 4:27 AM EDT Woah, slow it down a second. Before you guys go equating "metal-hating" with "bad," you guys should really define what the words good and bad really mean. If you break down her actions, you'll see that she's no more "evil" than Derek, Weaver, or (dare I say it?) Cameron. Just because she doesn't like Cameron and she doesn't wan John to have anything to do with her, it doesn't make her morally corrupt. Especially given her circumstances. (edit) To add a bit more to the conversation, I sort of assumed that there was a (relatively) significant amount of time that passed between when Derek time-jumped and when Jesse did it. And that while Derek was technically correct that this Jesse wasn't HIS Jesse, the biggest change in her disposition and personality were events that Derek wasn't aware of. His statement and actions came from being misinformed/ignorant about what happened to her between the time he jumped and when he met her again in 2009, the Jimmy Carter incident being the biggest one. But this is all interpretation though. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
termi-ninja-tor	5. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 4:27 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 4:31 AM EDT "Woah, slow it down a second. Before you guys go equating "metal-hating" with "bad," you guys should really define what the words good and bad really mean. If you break down her actions, you'll see that she's no more "evil" than Derek, Weaver, or (dare I say it?) Cameron. Just because she doesn't like Cameron and she doesn't wan John to have anything to do with her, it doesn't make her morally corrupt. Especially given her circumstances." Good point. I tried to avoid making any value judgments about her actions and attitudes. I used "negative" to denote the direction of her feelings/plans toward Cam. And "metal-hating" is just used to describe someone who hates metal, without specifying whether that is a desirable or undesirable attribute. I think the OP is just looking for a way to work into his fanfic the Jesse character as an ally to John & Cam, versus someone who tried to separate them as depicted in the show. [edit] I have removed the word "good" from two sentences in my above posts, because its use implies a value judgment that I would prefer not to make. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
rref	6. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 5:10 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 7:05 AM EDT I don't think the root of Jesse's problems stem from any one event, like post 3 describes. What she saw happen on the Jimmy Carter was representative of the Resistance as a whole. The problem with Metal is that they don't know the value of human life and that when they make decisions, this aspect is completely disregarded. This was her problem with Queeg and why she told him to step down from command. When he didn't, she destroyed him. When she got back to Serrano, it was the same problem. Cameron: "... your actions have resulted in the loss of a T-888 and one of our key strategic assets. The submarine is irreplaceable." Jesse: "The trip-eight, the sub... you forgot the people." What's worse is that the crew was uneasy largely because they were left in the dark about where their orders were coming from. Having Cameron say "...talking to me is the same thing..." again just highlights events that occurred aboard the JC.Placing a machine in such a high level, supposedly helping John make decisions for the Resistance and acting the way Queeg did on the sub would definitely shake her belief in the current system. Many, Derek included, agree that having Cameron/Metal around is not a good thing. Still though, what can she do? Like what happened on the sub, she can't talk to the one in charge, she has to talk to a machine. She can't tell Cameron to step down, so what does she do? The equivalent of shooting Queeg, she tries to shake John's faith in her and remove her from power Even in killing Riley, what makes her actions more justifiable than Queeg killing Deets (sp?) is that she knows the value of human life. She weighed it against the consequences of having Cameron running around being Miss Metal-in-charge, and she acted.It's something a machine can never do, including Cameron (As illustrated by the above quote)... Not on that level anyway. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
stormbringer951	7. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 5:22 AM EDT It's possible if it's in TSCC-Derek's future; Jesse doesn't mess up the boxed T-1000 transfer for Queeg and she doesn't lose her baby and faith in John as he's only had the metal around for a few months, that she'd be a loyal soldier to John. But then she'd have no reason to travel back. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	8. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:05 AM EDT The Jesse Flores we saw in TSCC was good. Post reply 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
wilson_low	9. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:25 AM EDT It's settled... a loyal, machine-approving Jesse Flores would not have come back in time with tunnel-rat Riley to interfere with young John's machine-love-life. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DeadpooI	10. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:34 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 11 2009, 10:58 AM EDT "Even in killing Riley, what makes her actions more justifiable than Queeg killing Deets (sp?) is that she knows the value of human life. She weighed it against the consequences of having Cameron running around being Miss Metal-in-charge, and she acted.It's something a machine can never do, including Cameron (As illustrated by the above quote)... Not on that level anyway." You have got to be joking. Queeg killed a soldier who was attacking his superior officer and raising a mutiny. Jesse killed a girl that she was manipulating. I don't see any way the latter argument can be considered the lesser of two evils, especially on the basis that "she knows the value of human life." Yeah - she knows and cares about the value of human life so much that she's willing to end a (generally) innocent girl's existence on the off chance that it might have a positive effect for humanity as a whole, in the future. And the benefit will be indirect, at best. But Queeg is abominable, for using violence to save Jessie's life and protect a mission that could have directly improved the chances of humanity beating Skynet, i.e. securing the assistance of a T-1001 as General Connor wanted. "I'll just tell Stalin that he's off the hook for killing millions of his own people, because he had a human conscience somewhere (even if he consciously decided to throw it out of the window onto a bonfire.) He probably weighed up that collectivisation was more important than millions of Russian peasants. No biggie. At least he must have known the value of human life, being human and all." Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	11. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:40 AM EDT "The Jesse Flores we saw in TSCC was good." I have to qualify this statement. Jesse Flores ( same initials as Josh Friedman) intentions were to save humanity. Many on this forum think this = bad. I do not. Jesse fully intended to sacrifice Riley to achieve her goals. This part is difficult. If Rileys life could be traded for millions of others would you do it? Does it make you evil if you do? Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	12. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:44 AM EDT "You have got to be joking. Queeg killed a soldier who was attacking his superior officer and raising a mutiny. Jesse killed a girl that she was manipulating and tricking into betraying the leader of humanity. " 'leader of humanity' does not always mean 'good guy'. Stalin. Pol Pot, Hitler. There are many indications that future John Connor may not be a 'good guy'. There are also hints that future John Connor may already be dead. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DeadpooI	13. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:46 AM EDT "'leader of humanity' does not always mean 'good guy'. Stalin. Pol Pot, Hitler. There are many indications that future John Connor may not be a 'good guy'. There are also hints that future John Connor may already be dead." I'll edit that line then: "Jesse killed a girl that she was manipulating." I see! Now her crime is so much more benevolent and admirable than Queeg's! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	14. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:52 AM EDT "I'll edit that line then: "Jesse killed a girl that she was manipulating." I see! Now her crime is so much more benevolent and admirable than Queeg's! " My posts have not compared Jesse to Queeg. However I find Queegs actions to be overly heavy-handed. A T888 could have effortlessly walked Dietz to the brig. Instead he crushed his skull against a bulkhead. The writers gave us this scene for a reason. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Gusar	15. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:53 AM EDT "Jesse Flores ( same initials as Josh Friedman) intentions were to save humanity. Many on this forum think this = bad. I do not. Jesse fully intended to sacrifice Riley to achieve her goals. This part is difficult. If Rileys life could be traded for millions of others would you do it? Does it make you evil if you do?" But Jesse was very shortsighted. All she saw was "metal goes bad = soldiers die". But what she didn't take into account is how many were saved because of metal. An example: General Perry: "Without them, we would have never been able to do what we did [at Topanga Canyon]." In addition to that, how many work camps were busted and the people in them freed thanks to metal? How many missions (in addition to Topanga Canyon) required a lot less soldiers because they had help of metal? The way I see it, Jesse's actions are counter-productive to the Resistance, because of her inability to see the big picture. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DeadpooI	16. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 7:54 AM EDT "My posts have not compared Jesse to Queeg. However I find Queegs actions to be overly heavy-handed. A T888 could have effortlessly walked Dietz to the brig. Instead he crushed his skull against a bulkhead. The writers gave us this scene for a reason." Do you think that Queeg's actions were less "justifiable" than Jesse's? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
R.Daneel_Olivaw	17. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 8:02 AM EDT "But Jesse was very shortsighted. All she saw was "metal goes bad = soldiers die". But what she didn't take into account is how many were saved because of metal. " I really think she did take all that into account. I think Flores thought long and hard before putting her plan into action. All the future scenes we see of her, she is helping, feeding caring for people. The writers did not draw a two dimensional character here. @Deadpool "Do you think that Queeg's actions were less "justifiable" than Jesse's? " No simple answers here for me. I won't deny that Dietz was mutinous and being an ass, but it was implied that his character had been around a while and he was a good resistance fighter. I think the man deserved better. The difference may lie in what was to be gained by each act of killing. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
wilson_low	18. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 8:08 AM EDT Question: was the Jesse aboard the submarine that witnessed Queeg's brutality "Derek's Jesse" or "Jesse from another timeline who brought back Riley"?? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
KrelleK	19. RE: A good Jesse Flores Aug 11 2009, 8:10 AM EDT "It seems that Jesse was a normal Resistance soldier when she first met Derek in the future scene in Alpine Fields. She was from Australia and had come to California on the sub. She said her reprogrammed terminator sub captain, Queeg, was a decent "bloke." On the sub, Jesse's relationship with Queeg had a real breakdown due basically to lack of trust, and she felt compelled to destroy him. Shooting Queeg and scuttling the sub must have been a traumatic development for Jesse. She was not soothed by a rather rough conversation with Cam, who was functionally her superior in rank in the organization. The fairly unpleasant (for Jesse) exchange culminated in her being told by Cam that she had suffered a miscarriage. Again, the result must have been somewhat traumatic for her mentally. And Derek had disappeared on some mysterious and undisclosed mission, another unsettling development for Jesse. These events resulted in Jesse's very negative frame of mind. It appears her unhappiness became directed to pursuing her plan against Cam. And remember she started out apparently supportive of Queeg when she first met Derek. Knowing thus the evolution of her negative attitudes, we can postulate that she wouldn't have felt so negative if certain things had not happened." yeah at first I liked her on the Jimmy Carter, it was after that other guy began making trouble, and she chose to kill Queeg that i did not like her anymore, perhaps John should have allowed something to be told to Jesse about the case, even was a little half lie, that it was a new weapon from a group of machines that was against Skynet, and by the way are we sure that the reproed machines goes, bad and it isnot just Skynet, that has during a skirmish/battle has destroyed incapacitated trusted reproed machines, and inserted a skynet loyal chip in it, or sent in a copy of the trusted machine. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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