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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:29 PM EDT
What then? Would we grant him citizenship in the human race? Would we allow him to procreate unchecked? Would he and those like him be integrated into human society? If so would machines be allowed to vote for the leaders of men? Would he build his own machine city, like 01 in The Animatrix? If so would it be a sovereign nation? And would it kick our asses in productivity? Would you want your daughter to marry him? She would be a queen of machines. Would we have really won? Do you find this valuable?
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markingswall |
1. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:36 PM EDT
"What then?It's not about winning but about co-existing in peace. They would kick our asses in productivity. I don't have an answer for the other questions Do you find this valuable? |
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ScotWithOne_t |
2. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:36 PM EDT
"What then?Sounds like someone's been reading Isaac Asimov. Do you find this valuable? |
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
3. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:41 PM EDT
"Sounds like someone's been reading Isaac Asimov."And Harlan Ellison and Gene Roddenberry Ben Bova Larry Niven Orson Scott Card Arthur C Clarke Gordon Dickson David Brin Poul Anderson Roland Green (ad infinitum) Do you find this valuable? |
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PyroDude |
4. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:46 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 5:48 PM EDT
"What then?1. Why make him a "citizen" of the human race? He's a machine, his own citizen. Why should he seek to become human? 2. Like spawn countless AI? I don't see how you could really stop him. But I don't see why he would. 3. I don't think the machines would really want to fully integrate. 4. Machine city/nation sounds more likely. As for productivity, the economy of the future with AIs and machines would be radically different. We can't apply current economics to a post JDay world like this, in my opinion. 5. Sure, why not. 6. Yes. All machines are not evil. Why does it matter if some allied with humanity to win? It's like saying the US never really won World War II because we had Japanese, German, and Italian soldiers in the military. Do you find this valuable? |
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
5. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:49 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 6:04 PM EDT
"1. Why make him a "citizen" of the human race? He's a machine, his own citizen.Evil is relative, the meaning of the question is, would there still be a threat? As in would JH always see an alliance with mankind as beneficial, or would war with him be an eventuality? (edit) lol, why would you downvote this? its not even a statement! 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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kaotic |
6. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:53 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 5:55 PM EDT
Everyone rebuilds, I'm working on a fanfic that kind of talks about this near the end of the story.-- "Would we grant him citizenship in the human race?" No, not completely but they would be allowed to vote. He wouldn't be a part of the human race, but he and the other machines would be living among us as our friends. "Would we allow him to procreate unchecked?" In a post Skynet war, everyone from man to machine will have to procreate (built more machines). If you have someone like John Henry to watch over them and to teach them right from wrong then it would be no different then how a parent would teach a child. Everyone would have to work together after a war like that. -- "Would he and those like him be integrated into human society? If so would machines be allowed to vote for the leaders of men?" Yes I think they would be integrated into human society, but there would probably a lot of hate towards the machines for a long time humans hold grudges for while. Would they be allowed to vote sure, if they're working to rebuild along side men to make the world a better place then yes they should have a right to vote. -- "Would he build his own machine city, like 01 in The Animatrix? If so would it be a sovereign nation? And would it kick our asses in productivity?" Why would he do this? I would see John Henry working along side mankind to rebuild from the ashes not turn his back on us and create his own city. -- edited. Do you find this valuable? |
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kaotic |
7. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:54 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 6:00 PM EDT
"Would you want your daughter to marry him? She would be a queen of machines."I'm pretty sure he, and other machines wouldn't have any desire to marry unless they were given the same abilities Cameron has. Cameron was the only one of her kind that had the ability to understand and fully mimic emotions (T-1000+ excluded). She was able to grow attached to things, but I don't think marriage would've ever been something she would've thought about. Unless John Connor wanted to get married :/ -- "Would we have really won?" Depends I guess, if you're happy that the war is over, and people are rebuilding and working together than yes. But if you see machines as the enemy still, and are driven by hate then you would probably think that we lost. Machines are innocent really in the war with Skynet- They're made, and are programmed to do what they did/do. It's no different than brain watching a child, or adult. But if John Henry can show the machines that life is sacred then there shouldn't be any problems. Do you find this valuable? |
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PyroDude |
8. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 5:56 PM EDT
"Evil is relative, the meaning of the question is, would there still be a threat? As in would JH always see an alliance with mankind as beneficial, or would war with him be an eventuality?"This is assuming human nations don't re emerge after the war. And quite frankly, I see humans fighting with each other more than I do the machines. And this also depends on who John Henry sides with. He was Built in the USA, lived in the USA, and was taught by Americans, will he pledge loyalty to the reconstituted United States or will he form his own nation? Where? Assuming Connor decides to lead the US and doesn't just think his duty is done because the war is (a messiah like figure like Connor can never retire, because bad people would emerge and do things in his name) and John gives land to John Henry... what then? There's going to be a lot of pissed off nations at the US for Skynet coming out of America. Skynet was based in America, used American nukes, and was developed by Americans. I see retribution against America as the more likely scenario than John Henry going to war with humanity. Do you find this valuable? |
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
9. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 6:03 PM EDT
"This is assuming human nations don't re emerge after the war. And quite frankly, I see humans fighting with each other more than I do the machines.Good point about the reemergence of nations. Many fictions (like Watchmen, I think) have proposed that the only thing that could galvanize humanity into a single society would be a common enemy. Could it be that Jday was the one thing humanity needed? Do you find this valuable? |
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markingswall |
10. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 6:13 PM EDT
"This is assuming human nations don't re emerge after the war. And quite frankly, I see humans fighting with each other more than I do the machines.You just kicked this thread into second gear and it wasn't bad to srart with neither. Very interesting read. Too bad I gotta catch some zzz's right now but I'll definetly read the continuation of this in the morning. One question though...would there be enough people left to build up their nations again? Would there be more or less nations than before Skynet attacked? Would John Henry choose sides since he has to defend himself too if it were to come to that. Would John Henry be disapointed in humans if they did retaliate? Okay that was more than one question. Do you find this valuable? |
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
11. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 6:15 PM EDT
"Let me check if there is a limit on more questions........nope. You're good. Do you find this valuable? |
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PyroDude |
12. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 6:34 PM EDT
@R Daneel:I really doubt something like JDay would unit the world into anything other than a very, very loose confederation. Maybe something like a worldwide EU rather than the current UN, but that's it. No Trek hippy Earth. ;-)@markingswall: With the population it depends. There will be just shy of 7 billion humans in 2011. We also need to take into account that the estimates presented in T2 or T1 on world deaths also involved a lot more nuclear weapons. There have been significant decreases in the amount of nukes in the 13/15 years between T2 and TSCC JDay. There is also debate on just how many would die. I've seen the usual armageddon, we-all-die predictions, with counter predictions that maybe 2 billion would die in nuclear war tops. Many would die from the ensuing problems. But I can see maybe half or a little more than half the world population surviving. Then it becomes how effective Skynet is. If there are organized human militaries still fighting then Skynet needs to concentrate on taking them out. Mass genocide would be a secondary concern. It'd be smarter of Skynet to just to destroy infrastructure and let a harsh nature take care of the rest. With JH choosing sides, I see him choosing sides based on who wants to help him, who wants to exploit him, and who wants to kill him. And I don't see him being "disappointed." Conflict is *natural*. Remove conflict and you take away a very important part of our own humanity, in my opinion. And conflict generally results in a desire for revenge. That may not be the best human trait we have, but if you could somehow program out revenge humanity would be, well, dull, in my opinion. And not very human. There are definite grievances which will have to be addressed. Do you find this valuable? |
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
13. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 7:08 PM EDT
One of my favorite scifi subjects is space travel. Getting some of our eggs out of this one basket and onto other habitable worlds would help insure our survival.For intelligent machines 'habitable' is a wider range of worlds. Even Earth's moon might apply. Would JH and friends reach for the stars? Would we try to beat them to it? Would we join them in the endeavor? Do you find this valuable? |
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PyroDude |
14. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 7:16 PM EDT
"One of my favorite scifi subjects is space travel. Getting some of our eggs out of this one basket and onto other habitable worlds would help insure our survival.With John Henry I'd see science exploding. Look at what Skynet did in less than 20 years. JH and the machines could make significant advances for science, IMO. Do you find this valuable? |
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cp442 |
15. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 7:25 PM EDT
"One of my favorite scifi subjects is space travel. Getting some of our eggs out of this one basket and onto other habitable worlds would help insure our survival.You're familiar with Asimov's story, "Robot Visions", written for the collection of short stories of the same name, right RDO? I think sending JH-type entities beyond the reach of where humans can live, would be analogous; they would be, essentially, an evolutionary offshoot of humans, and could, in theory, create more of themselves once the necessary raw materials were found on other planets. Ultimately, we could use JH and his kind to spread the influence of humanity (at least by proxy) far beyond what we alone would be capable of. Do you find this valuable? |
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m1919 |
16. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 7:38 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 7:42 PM EDT
"@markingswall: With the population it depends. There will be just shy of 7 billion humans in 2011. We also need to take into account that the estimates presented in T2 or T1 on world deaths also involved a lot more nuclear weapons. There have been significant decreases in the amount of nukes in the 13/15 years between T2 and TSCC JDay.The amount of nuclear weapons remaining in service and in storage is more than enough to still kill at least half the human population even by 2011. Also, the ensuing cooling after the nuclear war would kill a significant portion of the survivors. We're not in a cold war situation right now, but those weapons still in service are still aimed at many of the same targets that they were aimed at during the cold war, and that includes non-military targets, major industrial centers, power generation, refinery capacity, all these areas would expose civilian population to attack. Do you find this valuable? |
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Enigma6482 |
17. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 8:04 PM EDT
I see us coexsisting for awhile and then someone/thing going and screwing everything up and we repeat the same pattern again.
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cp442 |
18. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 8:10 PM EDT
"I see us coexsisting for awhile and then someone/thing going and screwing everything up and we repeat the same pattern again. "Sad but true. Humans will always be irrational and self-destructive, while machines that closely resemble humans will likely evolve in complexity to the point at which they, too, become irrational. Now, if you could keep an advanced AI restrained, somehow, and prevent it from doing anything grossly illogical, it would then be superior to people, and peace would reign. The question for such a machine would be, how do you inhibit certain impulses while allowing others? i.e, how do you reach a balance between a sentient machine that can have abstract thought, can appreciate art, humor, etc, and yet can't go "insane" like a person? Do you find this valuable? |
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toasty2 |
19. RE: If John Henry helped us win
Aug 7 2009, 8:12 PM EDT
"Now, if you could keep an advanced AI restrained, somehow, and prevent it from doing anything grossly illogical, it would then be superior to people, and peace would reign."Yeah! I know...We could make some awesome defense network and call it Sky...lol just kidding. Do you find this valuable? |