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cyborg_fiend
cyborg_fiend
Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 11:48 AM EDT
Okay, in hopes of boosting some SCC on topic chit chat, I'm gonna post a question I've had in my head for a while, but didn't ask for fear of being called an idiot =P

(and I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, which it likely is)

In Season one we see Cromartie putting himself back together. He posts the equation for the synthetic blood on the wall of the scientists home, in essence "inventing" the blood himself- for in this timeline, it's the first case it's ever been seen.

Obviously he has taken this information with him from the future to the past, and is creating it for us here in the present.

My question is, if the blood is being invented by someone who brought it back through time, was there a point in time when someone actually thought out the formula and invented it from scratch?

Is there a person somewhere in time who comes up with this equation for the first time ever, or does the fact that it's been brought back by Cromartie create a timeloop in which an initial creation of the blood *does not* exist??

I hope this makes sense, and I realize I likely am just overthinking, but hey! All of us who are fans of this series overthink- time travel is a major mind eff)

Anywho! Chit chat awayyy!

edit- Oh, and in the future when they look back to see who created the blood, will they say Dr. Hadhiseyestaken??
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
1. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:49 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 11:54 AM EDT
"Okay, in hopes of boosting some SCC on topic chit chat, I'm gonna post a question I've had in my head for a while, but didn't ask for fear of being called an idiot =P

(and I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, which it likely is)

In Season one we see Cromartie putting himself back together. He posts the equation for the synthetic blood on the wall of the scientists home, in essence "inventing" the blood himself- for in this timeline, it's the first case it's ever been seen.

Obviously he has taken this information with him from the future to the past, and is creating it for us here in the present.

My question is, if the blood is being invented by someone who brought it back through time, was there a point in time when someone actually thought out the formula and invented it from scratch?

Is there a person somewhere in time who comes up with this equation for the first time ever, or does the fact that it's been brought back by Cromartie create a timeloop in which an initial creation of the blood *does not* exist??

I hope this makes sense, and I realize I likely am just overthinking, but hey! All of us who are fans of this series overthink- time travel is a major mind eff)

Anywho! Chit chat awayyy!"
As you have observed, we have not been given an explanation.

I would guess that someone invents the synthetic blood after 2007 and before the T800s. The T600s were rubber skinned, but the T800s had lifelike skin. My guess would be that the inventor is Skynet. or greys working in Skynet R&D labs. I don't think the general population or the Resistance will be doing this kind of research after Judgment Day.

There would be no time loop paradox if all that Cromartie did was to bring the formula back in time for his own use. And he did kill the scientist, destroy his recorder, and obscured the formulas on the wall.
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Zeno-2
Zeno-2
2. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:54 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 11:54 AM EDT

Congrats, you have found the ontological paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox
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rref
rref
3. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:55 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 11:56 AM EDT
The paradox you describe is similar to the John/Skynet time travel paradox. Was there ever a point where John's father wasn't Kyle Reese? Admittedly though, I never thought of the blood as this kind of paradox... Didn't Cromartie kill the guys that helped him produce the blood? I don't think the blood was ever collected so that it could be reproduced in the future, though I may be wrong. (I'm not sure if blood stains on the walls would be enough to reproduce it.) Do you find this valuable?    

m1919
4. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:59 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:01 PM EDT
Synthetic blood was developed by Skynet, probably through research and experimentation on thousands of human test subjects. I don't think Skynet would require the services of grays to conduct its R&D. That would be slow and inefficient. I never really liked the idea of the grays in TSSC. Using humans to conduct torture, interrogation and research would be slow, inefficient and a waste of resources. Do you find this valuable?    
Fermi
Fermi
5. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 11:59 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 11:59 AM EDT
This remind me of the paradox of the man with no past I read about it in this article
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/kaku1-1.html
There is also the paradox of the man who is his own mother, father, brother, sister, grandfather, grandmother, and grandchild
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cyborg_fiend
cyborg_fiend
6. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:01 PM EDT
Yeah, I thought of how he killed everyone involved with its production, but I thought maybe, if it was possible that the blood found in the tub could be analyzed it might give present days humans something to work with... I guess the whole reason he probably did destory everything was so it couldn't be invented yet, only for his use. Which would make my whole topic moot =P


And yes, the John/Kyle theory is more than I can think about, lol....I suppose since it acutally involves someone's existance I find it harder to work out in my head.
Thanks for the responses :)

@ Zeno- thanks for the link
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cyborg_fiend
cyborg_fiend
7. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:09 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:09 PM EDT
"This remind me of the paradox of the man with no past I read about it in this article
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/kaku1-1.html
There is also the paradox of the man who is his own mother, father, brother, sister, grandfather, grandmother, and grandchild"
Thanks for the link Fermi

That last one you mentioned must be interesting too!
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CamDer
CamDer
8. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:10 PM EDT
"Okay, in hopes of boosting some SCC on topic chit chat, I'm gonna post a question I've had in my head for a while, but didn't ask for fear of being called an idiot =P

(and I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, which it likely is)

In Season one we see Cromartie putting himself back together. He posts the equation for the synthetic blood on the wall of the scientists home, in essence "inventing" the blood himself- for in this timeline, it's the first case it's ever been seen.

Obviously he has taken this information with him from the future to the past, and is creating it for us here in the present.

My question is, if the blood is being invented by someone who brought it back through time, was there a point in time when someone actually thought out the formula and invented it from scratch?

Is there a person somewhere in time who comes up with this equation for the first time ever, or does the fact that it's been brought back by Cromartie create a timeloop in which an initial creation of the blood *does not* exist??

I hope this makes sense, and I realize I likely am just overthinking, but hey! All of us who are fans of this series overthink- time travel is a major mind eff)

Anywho! Chit chat awayyy!

edit- Oh, and in the future when they look back to see who created the blood, will they say Dr. Hadhiseyestaken??"
1 word.

MAGIC!!!!!!!
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
9. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:11 PM EDT
"The paradox you describe is similar to the John/Skynet time travel paradox. Was there ever a point where John's father wasn't Kyle Reese? Admittedly though, I never thought of the blood as this kind of paradox... Didn't Cromartie kill the guys that helped him produce the blood? I don't think the blood was ever collected so that it could be reproduced in the future, though I may be wrong. (I'm not sure if blood stains on the walls would be enough to reproduce it.)"
We don't know how time travel would work. It doesn't exist.

The Terminator Universe defines time travel such that the future can be changed. Otherwise, there would be no point to Sarah's attempts to stop Judgment Day. The movies and TSCC have portrayed the future as changeable.

I think Sarah first had a son by some man whom we don't know. After Judgment Day, he became the leader of the Resistance, and they were winning the war against Skynet. His name was John Connor. He sent back Kyle Reese who fathered a son with Sarah, whom she named John, too. This John is a different person from the first John. This John is the John we know in TSCC.

I put some of these thoughts on my profile page.
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cyborg_fiend
cyborg_fiend
10. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:21 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:21 PM EDT
"We don't know how time travel would work. It doesn't exist.

The Terminator Universe defines time travel such that the future can be changed. Otherwise, there would be no point to Sarah's attempts to stop Judgment Day. The movies and TSCC have portrayed the future as changeable.

I think Sarah first had a son by some man whom we don't know. After Judgment Day, he became the leader of the Resistance, and they were winning the war against Skynet. His name was John Connor. He sent back Kyle Reese who fathered a son with Sarah, whom she named John, too. This John is a different person from the first John. This John is the John we know in TSCC.

I put some of these thoughts on my profile page."
That's a really interesting theory, I never thought of that before... :)
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rref
rref
11. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:32 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:32 PM EDT
"We don't know how time travel would work. It doesn't exist.

The Terminator Universe defines time travel such that the future can be changed. Otherwise, there would be no point to Sarah's attempts to stop Judgment Day. The movies and TSCC have portrayed the future as changeable.

I think Sarah first had a son by some man whom we don't know. After Judgment Day, he became the leader of the Resistance, and they were winning the war against Skynet. His name was John Connor. He sent back Kyle Reese who fathered a son with Sarah, whom she named John, too. This John is a different person from the first John. This John is the John we know in TSCC.

I put some of these thoughts on my profile page."
Personally, I don't like that theory because it means John doesn't really have to be the savior of the world. I prefer to think of T1 as a closed loop, because it's strongly implied. There's always the question of how this fits with the rest of the saga, but I don't think it necessarily has to, since the multi-verse theory has a lot of inconsistencies already. Or if one absolutely needs to make it fit in, then since John is the savior, he can be special. The closed loop exists for him only. I know... mine isn't the greatest answer, lol.
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cyborg_fiend
cyborg_fiend
12. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 12:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 12:34 PM EDT
"Personally, I don't like that theory because it means John doesn't really have to be the savior of the world. I prefer to think of T1 as a closed loop, because it's strongly implied. There's always the question of how this fits with the rest of the saga, but I don't think it necessarily has to, since the multi-verse theory has a lot of inconsistencies already. Or if one absolutely needs to make it fit in, then since John is the savior, he can be special. The closed loop exists for him only. I know... mine isn't the greatest answer, lol."
I agree with you- I like to think of John as "the one" - no one else could do it but him.
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Valor.D
Valor.D
13. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 1:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 1:03 PM EDT
This is commonly called the "Causality Loop": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_loop

It's like an episode of the original "Twilight Zone" I once saw entitled "No time like the past", in which a time traveler from the future goes back to a charming little Indiana town in the 1800's to live out his life in peace, and escape the stresses of modern life. He inadvertently brings information about the future, a tragedy in the town which kills more than a dozen small children, and feels compelled to try to prevent it. And, in so doing, actually causes the accident, indirectly. Would it still have happened had he not gone back in time? Probably not. The fact that he went back into time changed the way that events unfolded, thereby altering the future. His knowledge of that future was his own worst enemy. The causality loop intertwines the past with the future.
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Garrat
Garrat
14. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 1:19 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 1:19 PM EDT
"I think Sarah first had a son by some man whom we don't know. After Judgment Day, he became the leader of the Resistance, and they were winning the war against Skynet. His name was John Connor. He sent back Kyle Reese who fathered a son with Sarah, whom she named John, too. This John is a different person from the first John. This John is the John we know in TSCC.
"
the way I have thought of it (so my head doesn't hurt) is that Kyle started the loop NOT John.
Meaning that in the first loop he came back in time for a reason other than saving Sarah. Maybe to stop Skynet, maybe to just escape it. He then meet Sarah and we know the rest!

It also helps me with the problem of who John's original father was - John did not originally exist. So who knows what Sarah original future was.

Just my theory and how I don't go completely nuts thinking about this. :)
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PyroDude
15. RE: Question about the creation of synthetic blood/time travel
Jun 25 2009, 1:27 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 25 2009, 1:27 PM EDT
"Okay, in hopes of boosting some SCC on topic chit chat, I'm gonna post a question I've had in my head for a while, but didn't ask for fear of being called an idiot =P

(and I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, which it likely is)

In Season one we see Cromartie putting himself back together. He posts the equation for the synthetic blood on the wall of the scientists home, in essence "inventing" the blood himself- for in this timeline, it's the first case it's ever been seen.

Obviously he has taken this information with him from the future to the past, and is creating it for us here in the present.

My question is, if the blood is being invented by someone who brought it back through time, was there a point in time when someone actually thought out the formula and invented it from scratch?

Is there a person somewhere in time who comes up with this equation for the first time ever, or does the fact that it's been brought back by Cromartie create a timeloop in which an initial creation of the blood *does not* exist??

I hope this makes sense, and I realize I likely am just overthinking, but hey! All of us who are fans of this series overthink- time travel is a major mind eff)

Anywho! Chit chat awayyy!

edit- Oh, and in the future when they look back to see who created the blood, will they say Dr. Hadhiseyestaken??"
I don't think this violates anything since the formula was destroyed. It would then later be created by a human.

Or at this point, assuming Judgment Day ocurrs and there are T-888 active in 2011 then they could 'invent' it. But originally it'd be a human inventing it. Most likely. Yes?
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