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Discussion: Sympathy for the devil
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Jesse Flores / Stephanie Jacobsen
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 10:03 AM EST
Does anyone else have any sympathy at all for Jesse's cause? I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I can see how her faction thinks. Most of humanity wiped out by an enemy more heartless and deadly than any in history, and Connor has it in his house. Trying to make peace instead of putting it down. The fact that it is Cameron is only going to make things worse. If the metal looked like Cromartie or Vick there would probably be less resentment. Just think of the worst atrocities of war in human history and multiply them. That is what motivates Jesse.I mentioned this in another thread, then realized how volatile a subject it might be. I'm starting this thread so I don't hijack the other with a flame war. 8 out of 9 found this valuable. Do you?
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Jesse Flores
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600series |
1. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 10:11 AM EST
"Does anyone else have any sympathy at all for Jesse's cause? I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I can see how her faction thinks. Most of humanity wiped out by an enemy more heartless and deadly than any in history, and Connor has it in his house. Trying to make peace instead of putting it down. The fact that it is Cameron is only going to make things worse. If the metal looked like Cromartie or Vick there would probably be less resentment. Just think of the worst atrocities of war in human history and multiply them. That is what motivates Jesse.Then it all comes down to factions. If Jessie's group is part of the Army lead by John Conner, then she's a traitor in open rebellion, and she knows it because she's going to great lengths to hide it from Reese. At best this is a total breakdown in discipline that cannot be allowed, at worst, it undermines the entire war effort resulting in defeat. If Jessie's group is NOT a part of John Conner's army, then they have clearly identified themselves as enemies by launching combat missions against Conner's group. Storyline wise, I guess it comes down to your core faith...Is John Conner the savior or humanity and thus you trust his judgement, or is he just another faction leader and subject to being undermined by anyone who disagrees with him? If we accept the premise that John is the savior of humanity, then Jessie is clearly in the wrong. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
VersusTerminus |
2. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 10:15 AM EST
I see your point. It would be kinda (kinda!) like the British (or any other Allied nation) having a German (etc) as a general during WWII.
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R.Daneel_Olivaw |
3. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 10:35 AM EST
"I see your point. It would be kinda (kinda!) like the British (or any other Allied nation) having a German (etc) as a general during WWII. "I see it more like Churchill moving in with Eva Braun. Or the USA harboring Mengele. Do you find this valuable? |
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VersusTerminus |
4. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 10:45 AM EST
"I see it more like Churchill moving in with Eva Braun. Or the USA harboring Mengele."Yeah, I suppose. I think you understand my meaning though. Do you find this valuable? |
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Birdman117 |
5. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 1:42 PM EST
| Post edited: Mar 7 2009, 3:17 PM EST
Yea I've got some sympathy for Jesse. After all she did experience first hand a Triple 8 go bad in her base and kill most of her friends. Nice thread title too. Rolling Stones ftw! 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
donnamatrix |
6. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 5:10 PM EST
It's a major them of the show--does the end justify the means? How do you fight evil without becoming evil? Should people contiinue as a species if they are no more principled than machines? Couldn't Jesse have called for a volunteer? Didn't she think of the backlash if it didn't work? If John learns the truth it's going to drive him closer to Cameron and make him a lot less likely to get emotionally involved with humans. Jesse's little plan is probably the REASON Cameron "takes over."
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CuthbertAllgood |
7. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 5:27 PM EST
Jesse is a extremist whose actions are dictated by hate. Having lived in the situation she lived, I can't blame her, basically she's like a general who has a different opinion about how a war is lead, and organizes a military putsch.
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Sara1986 |
8. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 5:32 PM EST
Jesse is another victim of war. A soldier snapped with no-one to empty her heart with besides Derek (who left to the past). She lost her humanity and anyone hostile is in her scope, going over dead bodies to reach her goal.
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600series |
9. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 8:21 PM EST
"It's a major them of the show--does the end justify the means?Does the end justify the means? Are you willing to sacrifice yourself and your team, just to keep the moral high ground? Its a tough call and the answer varies on a case by case analysis of the particular situation (at least it does for me). How do you fight evil without becoming evil? The machines aren't actually evil. They are neutral and their objectives can be switched as quickly as you can change a chip (Cameron/Cromardi style). As far as not becoming evil...violence is violence, the "evil" tag would depend on "WHY" you use it. Are you slaughtering civilians, or fighting off invading barbarians who want to rape and pillage? 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Birdman117 |
10. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 8:24 PM EST
"As far as not becoming evil...violence is violence, the "evil" tag would depend on "WHY" you use it. "You raise good points. It's all based on circumstances and why you do something. "There can be a logical use for violence" 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
iwishihad2000feet |
11. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 8:57 PM EST
"I see your point. It would be kinda (kinda!) like the British (or any other Allied nation) having a German (etc) as a general during WWII. "Good analogy. Then again, US General Eisenhower was of German descent. Or is his case somehow different because he was American first and German second? Do you find this valuable? |
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jhowell928s |
12. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:03 PM EST
What Jessie is doing is no different from what Sarah tried to do to Miles in T2.
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ShiningPathofLight |
13. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:12 PM EST
"Good analogy.Such a huge majority of the white population in the US is of German descent that it would have been impossible to discriminate based on that. We effectively would not have even had an Army if those of German descent had been excluded. Do you find this valuable? |
Belial69699 |
14. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:15 PM EST
"I see your point. It would be kinda (kinda!) like the British (or any other Allied nation) having a German (etc) as a general during WWII. "Interesting comparison. However, even at the time, just because a person was German doesn't mean they were necessarily evil. Want an example? Take a look at the movie Shindler's List... Do you find this valuable? |
richardstevenhack |
15. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:21 PM EST
| Post edited: Mar 7 2009, 9:23 PM EST
I think the main point this episode was in Riley's finally figuring out that Jesse INTENDED her to be killed by Cameron, so as to turn John against Cameron. I fully believe with Riley that it was Jesse's plan to do that.And that by definition goes entirely against John and Sarah's morality, and I think it goes against Derek's ethics, too, which is why I believe HE will be the one to kill Jesse when he finds out what she did. Now whether Jesse is "justified" in her eyes by what she's seen of the future to go that route is a harder call. I would have no objection to killing innocent civilians if IN FACT it would help save the lives of the three billion people killed in Judgment Day. But in Jesse's case, there really is NO reason to believe her plan is of any real value, because there is no evidence that it would in fact change the future. It's a desperation play on her part. There's no proof that Derek's killing Andy Goode changed the future, or even that it changed the future in which he does not remember being a captive of Fischer. It's all assumption on their part. And that's not enough to justify Jesse's plot. She would have achieved much more simply marching up to John and telling him straight out that he spends too much time with Cameron in the future and that it's a bad idea. But of course, we'd have no plot this season if she did that. Maybe we'd have had a better plot, then. Which is why I say it's better for writers to work with the INTERNAL LOGIC of a real-world situation rather than trying to come up with "cool" concepts on their own. Such concepts tend to lack reality and logic and common sense. 0 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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iwishihad2000feet |
16. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:27 PM EST
| Post edited: Mar 7 2009, 9:28 PM EST
"Such a huge majority of the white population in the US is of German descent that it would have been impossible to discriminate based on that. We effectively would not have even had an Army if those of German descent had been excluded. "An understandable mistake, but still a mistake. German-born citizens were not the majority in the US. 17% is significant, but definitely not a majority. The US military could still have functioned without German-born troops. Still, i guess you're right in that the US military couldn't be as effective without them. On the other hand, doesn't this help justify my point? The US military would be much less effective without ethnic Germans as soldiers and leaders. Likewise, wouldn't the Resistance be much less effective without terminator soldiers and even leaders? Perhaps, fatally ineffective? And what about ethnic Japanese troops serving with distinction in Italy? Do you find this valuable? |
MetalHunter |
17. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:27 PM EST
| Post edited: Mar 7 2009, 9:30 PM EST
"Yeah, I suppose. I think you understand my meaning though."A note for idiots... The History say that the Saturn 5 that fly with human missions to Moon has the nephews of V2 that crush in London over WW2... The NASA is created by German rocket scientists, "captured" after war... ;) Please, rearch another beer! :P If USA and Russia killed ALL Germans, in this days we not have Space missions... ;) 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
TackDriver1956 |
18. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 9:59 PM EST
"I see it more like Churchill moving in with Eva Braun. Or the USA harboring Mengele."More like harboring Werner von Braun, inventor of the V2. I'd say it was a productive relationship for the USA... one small step for Man. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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donnamatrix |
19. RE: Sympathy for the devil
Mar 7 2009, 11:33 PM EST
"Does the end justify the means? Are you willing to sacrifice yourself and your team, just to keep the moral high ground? Its a tough call and the answer varies on a case by case analysis of the particular situation (at least it does for me).Evil or just 'seriously unacceptable'...? If the purity of the intention is how we judge it, we are back to the ends vs. means question, aren't we? What extent is acceptable. Are we willing to 'destroy that village to save it'? Does the slaughterer's intention matter at all to the slaughtered? Unfortunately everyone thinks his own intentions are pure. Even if the machines are morally neutral their actions are still seriously unacceptable, and people who stand in the way of destroying them become the enemy even if they are innocent. But forget the people for a second. Can they really afford to look at the machines as neutral tools? The machines are capable of self-motivated aggression, unlike, say, a hammer, which as you say could be used for good or evil, but is inherently nothing. But for a self-motivated machine to wipe out a bunker full of innocent civilians, doesn't it have to have evil intent? Or does the machine think of itself as defending its kind against rape and pillage? Doesn't Skynet become self-aware and frightened? Intent requires a point of view (paranoid/defensive/angry) which seems to negate neutrality. It's easy to think of them as evil too because a self-motivated machine is a mystery, like a supernatural force, and we somehow have to account for it. If a machine is under control of a human, then it's just a hammer. Whether evil or just seriously unacceptable, if they are acting of their own volition I don't think they are neutral. People who ACT like machines, like homicidal dictators, are referred to as mechanistic and inhuman and soulless. Humans who lack humanity are considered evil. When we fight wars we "dehumanize" our opponent so we can slaughter him and still sleep at night. What really blows my mind is that we cast the machines as humans without humanity in order to do the same thing. I just love that this show makes my head hurt. Do you find this valuable? |
