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The_Computer_Wizard
Time Paradox
Dec 8 2008, 10:52 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 8 2008, 10:52 PM EST
Hello, I am a new poster here to these forums. I am not really a big fan of the Terminator series, but I do find it interesting. (sometimes much more interesting than all the garbage on the tv nowadays..but I digress)

Anyway, I would like to point out a plot hole big enough to drive a 18 wheeler through.

It starts like this
Sarah, John, and Derek are constantly fighting to destroy skynet and prevent them from ever existing.
The problem arises when you consider that the main reason why all this commotion is about is all due to poor old John, the future leader of mankind.
Hence the crux of my argument. If they were to destory skynet in present time, and prevent it from being designed, the following issues would take place.

1. They destroy skynet PERMANENTLY.
2. Because John was fathered by a guy from the future sent back in time to save Sarah, without skynet in the way, not only would he not be sent back, likey there would be not time machines to begin with in the future. (I say that because its safe to bet Skynet invented the timemachine.)
3. Because John does not exist, and skynet does not exist, Sarah has no purpose, and never ends up in a mental institute.
4. Because there is nobody to stop it, somebody reinvents Skynet.
5. havoc insues
6: Goto 1
The solution would be, rather than trying to stop Skynet, would be to work against it. Recruit people to an underground resistance early. Capture more t-888's and other terminators and convert them to the "good" side. Stockpile arms and munitions. Attempt to disable (using cameron and other teminators) Nuclear missiles from taking off to minimize fallout, craters, loss of life etc. Dont try to prevent the enevitable. Prepare for it.
I see things like this, but lol other than that and another plot hole which I have forgotten about , I think its a good series
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DeusEx
DeusEx
1. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 8 2008, 11:12 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 8 2008, 11:12 PM EST
"Hello, I am a new poster here to these forums. I am not really a big fan of the Terminator series, but I do find it interesting. (sometimes much more interesting than all the garbage on the tv nowadays..but I digress)

Anyway, I would like to point out a plot hole big enough to drive a 18 wheeler through.

It starts like this
Sarah, John, and Derek are constantly fighting to destroy skynet and prevent them from ever existing.
The problem arises when you consider that the main reason why all this commotion is about is all due to poor old John, the future leader of mankind.
Hence the crux of my argument. If they were to destory skynet in present time, and prevent it from being designed, the following issues would take place.

1. They destroy skynet PERMANENTLY.
2. Because John was fathered by a guy from the future sent back in time to save Sarah, without skynet in the way, not only would he not be sent back, likey there would be not time machines to begin with in the future. (I say that because its safe to bet Skynet invented the timemachine.)
3. Because John does not exist, and skynet does not exist, Sarah has no purpose, and never ends up in a mental institute.
4. Because there is nobody to stop it, somebody reinvents Skynet.
5. havoc insues
6: Goto 1
The solution would be, rather than trying to stop Skynet, would be to work against it. Recruit people to an underground resistance early. Capture more t-888's and other terminators and convert them to the "good" side. Stockpile arms and munitions. Attempt to disable (using cameron and other teminators) Nuclear missiles from taking off to minimize fallout, craters, loss of life etc. Dont try to prevent the enevitable. Prepare for it.
I see things like this, but lol other than that and another plot hole which I have forgotten about , I think its a good series "
This all depends on what theory of time travel you are working from (remembering that time travel is all fiction anyway).

I don't see it like this. I think what happened in John's timeline is in the past, and can't be reversed. Kyle Reese came back and fathered him, and if John walked up to little Kyle Reese and emptied a gun clip in his head John would still exist.

But in general in this type of story I think you will lose the thread if you worry over the time tavel too much. Its not realistic, but then neither was "Groundhog Day", and I liked both it and terminator. I don;t care that much about realism, if it will interfere with a good story.
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Brovane
Brovane
2. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 8 2008, 11:18 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 8 2008, 11:18 PM EST
"Hello, I am a new poster here to these forums. I am not really a big fan of the Terminator series, but I do find it interesting. (sometimes much more interesting than all the garbage on the tv nowadays..but I digress)

Anyway, I would like to point out a plot hole big enough to drive a 18 wheeler through.

It starts like this
Sarah, John, and Derek are constantly fighting to destroy skynet and prevent them from ever existing.
The problem arises when you consider that the main reason why all this commotion is about is all due to poor old John, the future leader of mankind.
Hence the crux of my argument. If they were to destory skynet in present time, and prevent it from being designed, the following issues would take place.

1. They destroy skynet PERMANENTLY.
2. Because John was fathered by a guy from the future sent back in time to save Sarah, without skynet in the way, not only would he not be sent back, likey there would be not time machines to begin with in the future. (I say that because its safe to bet Skynet invented the timemachine.)
3. Because John does not exist, and skynet does not exist, Sarah has no purpose, and never ends up in a mental institute.
4. Because there is nobody to stop it, somebody reinvents Skynet.
5. havoc insues
6: Goto 1
The solution would be, rather than trying to stop Skynet, would be to work against it. Recruit people to an underground resistance early. Capture more t-888's and other terminators and convert them to the "good" side. Stockpile arms and munitions. Attempt to disable (using cameron and other teminators) Nuclear missiles from taking off to minimize fallout, craters, loss of life etc. Dont try to prevent the enevitable. Prepare for it.
I see things like this, but lol other than that and another plot hole which I have forgotten about , I think its a good series "
You have several good points about stock piling weapons and preparing. They have the hope that they can stop JD. However I think it will be very difficult for it to happen. John will still exist just like if they stop JD Cameron will still exist and Derek will still exist.

At some point maybe if the series progresses more they might move to more proactive in-case of JD stockpiling weapons, food etc. to prepare when the bombs go off.

Also there is a argument that the more JD gets postponed the more powerful Skynet will be because the robots will be more advanced. If JD happens in 2020 for example maybe every Terminator will be a TX instead of just dealing with T-800 series. Skynet will have more advanced technology to use.
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
3. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 8 2008, 11:25 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 8 2008, 11:25 PM EST
It depends on your view of time travel.

One view that has been mentioned on the show is parallel universes, where anything and everything has/will happen. Characters can move from one to another, move from a Skynet-afflicted time line to one where there is no Skynet.

Another view is what seemed to be argued in the first two Terminator movies: "No fate but what we make for ourselves." I.e., John Connor is born from Kyle Reese having been sent back from a Skynet-afflicted future but he hopes to succeed in preventing Skynet's ascendance. If he succeeds, he gets to live in a future with no Skynet and Judgment Day. If you insist on saying that if there is no Skynet then John must disappear because Kyle was never sent back to father him, then you create your own paradox. We do not insist that time must work that way.

Philosophically, I would say John either must fail against Skynet or he can't exist to begin with. But given that he does exist and if he succeeds against Skynet (for the sake of the story), I would call his existence an example of "bootstrapping," an old term I got from reading Heinlein 50 years ago.
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warriormind
warriormind
4. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 12:02 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 12:02 AM EST
Its safe to say that the terminator universe doesn't deal with what I like to call "back to the future time travel". Derek is a great example, he's able to exist in the past, even though the future he came from is no longer the main timeline (as seen through his differing experiences than Jesse).

I think there was a thread a while back explaining the numerous time lines (I think 9) that have been created by skynet or the resistance traveling back in time.

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tommy-minou
tommy-minou
5. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 9:16 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 9:16 AM EST
Thanks Computer Wizard for breathing some well-needed perspective into this fantasy that we're all kidding ourselves about. And thanks for not mentioning how you don't like Riley.

The point about preparing for JD is a good one. They can't exactly start sabotaging nuclear missiles - they'd get killed. But they can start to prepare by stockpiling guns, preparing bunkers etc. Derek would know where all the bunkers will be, but probably its all currently private land they can't get access - or else they could start digging those same bunkers now!
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Garrison64
6. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 10:58 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 10:58 AM EST
The problem with the whole story line is Kyle being John's father. Even though it adds emotional punch to the story line, it also puts a massive hole in it. In reality John would never have been born to start with. John is supposed to be the future resistance leader that sends Kyle back but that couldn't happen without John being born. It's a vicious circle that has no answer so the story creates it's own paradox without anyone doing anything. The parallel universe is pointless because the whole thing totally loses meaning if we aren't fighting for ourselves. Who cares about some parallel universe. Let them deal with their own problems.

I like the show and enjoy the action and the characters, which are marvelously protrayed by the chosen actors. I just can't look at it realistically because it collapses on itself with the very first movie if I look at it that way. It is science fiction and just has to be accepted for that. It isn't the smartest science fiction but it is fun.

If they had been smart from the beginning they would have just had John be Sara's son already and let Kyle just be a protector. I know that would cost it the whole "I sent my own father back to the past so I could be born" romantic plot, but it would have made a helluva lot more sense.
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warriormind
warriormind
7. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 11:38 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 11:38 AM EST
I definitely agree that the movie painted itself into a paradox from the very beginning. The only way around that is to assume there was a timeline where Sarah had a kid with another father around the same time frame, and he eventually grew up to lead the resistance and send kyle back. Thus two different people but with the same name. The problem is that this explanation is getting to the point of being very contrived.

On your second point Gamson, I think that a leader is who spends his life fighting to save other people wouldn't be too picky which universe they were in.
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DavidB1111
8. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 12:26 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 12:26 PM EST
Paardoxes exist only in the mind. The Terminator series is a closed loop, period. Nothing done in the now, can affect the future that Derek is from, or for that matter, Cameron.

If a T-888 were to go and kill Kyle Reese as a kid, John would still exist, because of the way a closed loop works. Sorry, but Computer Wizard, your point is null on those grounds...

The series is a closed loop, and I'm sorry, but if they were to stop Skynet, John would still exist. It's that simple.

Now, if I were to build a time machine, and kill James Cameron before he created the Terminator franchise, my future would still be set in stone, I could not affect my future that I came from, therefore I would still have the knowledge of the Terminator franchise, while in the new timeline, everyone would have no idea what I am talking about?

Confused yet? Time travel, it does confuse you.
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Stampguy17
Stampguy17
9. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 4:25 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 4:25 PM EST
Interesting................ Do you find this valuable?    

pipplo
10. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 6:38 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 6:38 PM EST
It's been a while since I've seen the original terminator

I remember she was going to a club...maybe Kyle isn't really his father and she just forgot about that one night stand she had earlier that week?
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pipplo
11. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 6:51 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 6:51 PM EST
Seriously though..

Could it not be that the important part is he has Sarah's genes. i.e. the exact father doesn't matter. So the original john that sent back kyle was not kyles son? And kyle coming back merely sped up development of john? This would be interesting take as usually heroes are 'like their fathers' but here the importance is sarah connor..

Similar to how the terminators coming back and leaving tech helped skynet become more powerful when it started?
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Aktai
12. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 8:43 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 8:43 PM EST
The theory of time Travel used here is hinted at in episode 9 complications.
When you go back in time and change the past you'll find yourself in a different Timeline, think DBZ or Back to the future.
That means you're no longer in the Timeline which you remember but it has still existed.
To sum up:

* You can go back in time whenever you like.
* Every time you go back in time, you create an entirely new timeline.
* If you go forwards in time, you stay in your current timeline.

This means you can go back in time and change history. Easily. But that act creates a new and different timeline. You can never return to the timeline where you originally started, because going forwards in time just leaves you in the timeline two and going backwards in time for a second attempt would leave you in a third timeline. The net effect in your home timeline is that you have simply disappeared forever. If you go back in time to kill Hitler, you don't undo the Second World War, it stays happened, you just give everybody involved a chance to die all over again.

Pipplo makes a good point, maybe the origional connor and the current connor are two different people. Just named the same and do the same in the future. Leading the resistance.

My problem is how do you know Skynet is going to change something? You'd have to hack Skynet communications and find out they sent a T back to kill your mother. You send someone back to help her. You can't come from the second timeline where the T has gone back and killed Sarah. John'd be non existing and no-one would know to send someone back to give rise to a leader they never heard of. Only the T who was send back to timeline 2 has information about John and his future in timeline 1 because it is his past.

Confused yet?
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Aktai
13. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 8:47 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 8:47 PM EST
Just some additional stuff. Maybe you can get back to your own future if the changes you made were not big enough to affect the future.

If not however the question remains why bother? Why sent someone back to save your mother in a different timeline if its not the one you're living in now? Things for future John in timeline 1 won't change. You'd lose a man/machine sending it back nothing more.
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Shadoware
Shadoware
14. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 9 2008, 10:29 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 9 2008, 10:29 PM EST
Time travel always tend to create paradox, but there can be ways to solve it.
If John doesnt send his father to save his mother, he could send kyle for some other reason. There can be many ways to time fix itself!
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Stampguy17
Stampguy17
15. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 13 2008, 11:13 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 13 2008, 11:13 PM EST
bump Do you find this valuable?    
milrom
milrom
16. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 14 2008, 1:03 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2008, 1:03 PM EST
yee... i see the time paradox also, but-
i decided to enjoy the show – and just not think about it

but... IMO they should just try to find ways to destroy skynet in the future - like for ex. finding bugs in the program etc, and then in the future hack it and destroy it, or sth like that... ooo... i know i know... or program it a secret line - like when sb clicks ctr+alt+del skynet just blows up :P or maybe all they need to do in the future is stop fighting with the computer and find the RESET button... LOL
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FrenchFanofTSCC
FrenchFanofTSCC
17. RE: Time Paradox
Dec 14 2008, 1:51 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2008, 1:51 PM EST
time travel is part of the story from begining and sometimes its hard to understand it ,its just a great thing on Fan side ! Do you find this valuable?