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sycore
sycore
Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:06 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 12:06 AM EST
OK, I am new here so maybe there is a sticky for things we know to be facts, but since I don't see one I think we should start one. You don't have to post obvious stuff, but if you believe a fact in question to be true you should post it here and offer some evidence for support. I'll go first.

1) Riley is definitely from the future.
Evidence: She tells Jesse in the dress shop "There are a lot of mirrors in this world" and at the house she tell the family "You are all dead"

2) Future john is still around 16-17 years old.
Evidence: Derek was looking at the time machine room and John walks up behind him. He is still 17 years old, then Derek turns and sees him and wakes up to John's voice. Also, when he is coughing up blood he has his eyes closed and goes "Where's Kyle, where did you send him?". He then opens his eyes and looks right at young John and says "Where is he? You owe me the truth" like he is still talking to future John. Also, the fact that he is only seen by a handful of people in the future is probably because they would never follow him if they knew he was just a kid.
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Keyword tags: Factions Facts Fiction
Iranatest
Iranatest
1. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:47 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 12:47 AM EST
I'm fairly new here too. I'll admit I still haven't seen all of Season 1.

You will find people to not agree on either of these. I was just on a thread that was discussing how Jesse could convince a present day girl about Terminators.

This was the first time I heard that Young John is in the future. Which episode was this from?

I only think the really obvious stuff can be agreed on by most fans. Anyone want to counter that the only active terminators are Catherine and Cameron? John Henry is not mobile.
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Thecolours
Thecolours
2. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:57 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 12:57 AM EST
"OK, I am new here so maybe there is a sticky for things we know to be facts, but since I don't see one I think we should start one. You don't have to post obvious stuff, but if you believe a fact in question to be true you should post it here and offer some evidence for support. I'll go first.

1) Riley is definitely from the future.
Evidence: She tells Jesse in the dress shop "There are a lot of mirrors in this world" and at the house she tell the family "You are all dead"

2) Future john is still around 16-17 years old.
Evidence: Derek was looking at the time machine room and John walks up behind him. He is still 17 years old, then Derek turns and sees him and wakes up to John's voice. Also, when he is coughing up blood he has his eyes closed and goes "Where's Kyle, where did you send him?". He then opens his eyes and looks right at young John and says "Where is he? You owe me the truth" like he is still talking to future John. Also, the fact that he is only seen by a handful of people in the future is probably because they would never follow him if they knew he was just a kid."
I wish we could do sticky threads on this board, but we can't. The only option is to create a page, where people can add in facts as happen with each passing episode.

1)While I believe that Riley is from the future, there are still many people who would disagree with this. And it would be hard to convince them that it's fact.

2) That scene your referring to, John is not 16 years old in the future. It was a transitional scene from the future back to the present, when Derek was re-gaining his conciousness. They have yet to show John in the future at all.
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leysin
3. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 1:23 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 1:23 AM EST
1. Judgment Day is uavoidable from T3.
2. John Conner will be the future leader o mankind.
3. Skynet will be built.
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DeusEx
DeusEx
4. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 1:49 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 1:49 AM EST
I definetly agree Riley is from the future.

Young JC from the future is an interesting speculation. I have thought that may be the case I know the scene from S1 you are referring to, and it can be interpreted your way or the way TheColours says.

Derek says, in a little-remembered scene in S1, that "one of these will kill you", implying John is dead in the future. Future John, perhaps.

But anyway, its specualtion and definatly not something we know for sure.
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ScotWithOne_t
ScotWithOne_t
5. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 2:03 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 2:03 AM EST
"OK, I am new here so maybe there is a sticky for things we know to be facts, but since I don't see one I think we should start one. You don't have to post obvious stuff, but if you believe a fact in question to be true you should post it here and offer some evidence for support. I'll go first.

1) Riley is definitely from the future.
Evidence: She tells Jesse in the dress shop "There are a lot of mirrors in this world" and at the house she tell the family "You are all dead"

2) Future john is still around 16-17 years old.
Evidence: Derek was looking at the time machine room and John walks up behind him. He is still 17 years old, then Derek turns and sees him and wakes up to John's voice. Also, when he is coughing up blood he has his eyes closed and goes "Where's Kyle, where did you send him?". He then opens his eyes and looks right at young John and says "Where is he? You owe me the truth" like he is still talking to future John. Also, the fact that he is only seen by a handful of people in the future is probably because they would never follow him if they knew he was just a kid."
Umm... dude.. Do you know the difference between fact and speculation?

Both of your "facts" are based on speculation, circumstantial evidence and hearsay.

The only actualy facts we have are that Riley is cognizant of Judgment Day, and she is working with Jesse in some way or another.

The 16-17 year old "Future John" is easily dismissible as Derek transitioning from dream/hallucination to reality.
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FinalCylon
FinalCylon
6. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 4:04 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 4:04 AM EST
Whooboy. 3  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
Losa78
Losa78
7. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 8:22 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 8:22 AM EST
Ok, so the thread is called "Things we know for a fact", and the first thing the OP posts is exactly one of the most controversional questions of the show right now: wether Riley is from the future or not...
And the second one... Well, I'll just go with Scot's post. Pretty much sums it all up.
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t5000
t5000
8. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 8:27 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 8:27 AM EST
whooboy ::O: ... well on this show facts can be hard to find , they seem to enjoy making us think one thing and then and they do something unexpected to make us question what we were thinking.
but here is one fact ....Cameron is beautiful !!
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Iranatest
Iranatest
9. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 10:43 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 10:43 AM EST
"Ok, so the thread is called "Things we know for a fact", and the first thing the OP posts is exactly one of the most controversional questions of the show right now: wether Riley is from the future or not...
And the second one... Well, I'll just go with Scot's post. Pretty much sums it all up."
Whether accidentally or deliberately the writers and actors play out scenes that can be interpreted two or more ways (kinda like history can be interpolated in many ways based on ones prejudices).This leads to the thousands of threads of speculation. There is so much symbolism (like the fish & the bear) and there are so many suttle clues. Some people will even dismiss clues as errors in writing or acting if they don't fit "their pet theory". This is more of a mystery than an action show. IMHO it is not promoted correctly.

4. I would like to add AS A FACT that the writers are brilliant and yet are continually dancing on coals to keep the right balance of clues, interest revelations and correctness of plot.
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Will217
Will217
10. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 10:47 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 10:47 AM EST
I believe what sycore means when he says "fact" is something that can be backed up with specific details from an episode - not a straight assumption with no basis. He gives 2 reasons why he thinks Riley is from the future and frankly, both are valid. Those who don't agree, say so and back up your reasons with something from an episode to support your theory why. "Fact" may not be the correct word to use on the title of this thread, but I think we know what sycore means. Simply put, all theories must be backed up with evidence.

As for John being 16 years old in the future, I can't subscribe to that idea. Derek was in shock because of the gunshot wound. He was dreaming about a conversation with Future John, and as he woke up he was confronted by present John. I see no reason to read into it more than that.

Ladies and gents, by all means agree and disagree as you see fit but lets try to be courteous to each other. Dismissing someone's ideas is rude. If you don't agree, prove them wrong.
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UZI4YOU
UZI4YOU
11. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 10:50 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 10:50 AM EST
He may be 17 in actually age! But after his life experience. He more like 100!! 2  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
Losa78
Losa78
12. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 10:52 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 10:52 AM EST
"Whether accidentally or deliberately the writers and actors play out scenes that can be interpreted two or more ways (kinda like history can be interpolated in many ways based on ones prejudices)."
I like to believe that all the possible interpretations and theories are intentional, that the writers know exactly what they're doing and how they are permanently teasing the viewer.
All the mistery, the clues and permanent guessing is a huge part of what keeps me always coming back for more. I'm totally addicted to this show. Geezz...
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Iranatest
Iranatest
13. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:03 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:03 AM EST
5. If I add Jesse wants Cameron nuetralized would anyone disagree? 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Will217
Will217
14. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:05 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:05 AM EST
"5. If I add Jesse wants Cameron nuetralized would anyone disagree?"
Not me. She said as much to Derek.

"I'm here to stop her. I'm here to save him."
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Will217
Will217
15. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 11:20 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:20 AM EST
I've been debating on other threads whether or not Jessie was lying about how close John was to Cameron in the future. Their only argument is that "Jessie's a liar" but no other proof.

I think Derek's memories in "Dungeons & Dragons" support Jessie's claims that Cameron was influencing John. While Derek was dreaming, we never got to see John. He kept asking "take me to Connor" and "I want to speak to Connor" but they never did - until Cameron came to get him. Jessie's claims about how "he wasn't talking to anyone anymore - just her" fall right in line with what we saw in that episode, so I don't see the basis for refuting it with "Jessie's a liar." They're ALL liars:
Sarah: All I do is lie and lie.
Derek: I've told a few myself.
John hasn't told anyone about Cameron's "Alison" episode. Cameron admitted that she lies to John about "important things." Riley is lying to John about who she really is. Ellison lied to John and Cameron about taking Cromartie's body. CW is lying to everyone (hello, she's a T1001.)

If we dismiss a theory with "that person's a liar" we have nothing to go on.
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Losa78
Losa78
16. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:32 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:32 AM EST
"I believe what sycore means when he says "fact" is something that can be backed up with specific details from an episode - not a straight assumption with no basis. He gives 2 reasons why he thinks Riley is from the future and frankly, both are valid. Those who don't agree, say so and back up your reasons with something from an episode to support your theory why. "Fact" may not be the correct word to use on the title of this thread, but I think we know what sycore means. Simply put, all theories must be backed up with evidence.

As for John being 16 years old in the future, I can't subscribe to that idea. Derek was in shock because of the gunshot wound. He was dreaming about a conversation with Future John, and as he woke up he was confronted by present John. I see no reason to read into it more than that.

Ladies and gents, by all means agree and disagree as you see fit but lets try to be courteous to each other. Dismissing someone's ideas is rude. If you don't agree, prove them wrong. "
Will217, I really don't see how anyone on this thread lacked courtesy to anyone else, or dismissed anyone else's ideas with any kind of lack of respect.

Like you said it yourself, the title of the thread is being righteously disputed (and that's all there is to it), because you just can't list things we _know_ for a _fact_ by saying Riley is from the future or that future John is 16 or 17 years old. Come on...
The things you know for a fact are those which are undenyable, out of the question and not even open for debate, IMO.
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Iranatest
Iranatest
17. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 11:37 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:37 AM EST
"I've been debating on other threads whether or not Jessie was lying about how close John was to Cameron in the future. Their only argument is that "Jessie's a liar" but no other proof.

I think Derek's memories in "Dungeons & Dragons" support Jessie's claims that Cameron was influencing John. While Derek was dreaming, we never got to see John. He kept asking "take me to Connor" and "I want to speak to Connor" but they never did - until Cameron came to get him. Jessie's claims about how "he wasn't talking to anyone anymore - just her" fall right in line with what we saw in that episode, so I don't see the basis for refuting it with "Jessie's a liar." They're ALL liars:
Sarah: All I do is lie and lie.
Derek: I've told a few myself.
John hasn't told anyone about Cameron's "Alison" episode. Cameron admitted that she lies to John about "important things." Riley is lying to John about who she really is. Ellison lied to John and Cameron about taking Cromartie's body. CW is lying to everyone (hello, she's a T1001.)

If we dismiss a theory with "that person's a liar" we have nothing to go on."
I am not a 100% shipper. I agree with Cameron has a huge influence on John (now and then). I agree with "If we dismiss a theory with "that person's a liar" we have nothing to go on." These are the thots the writers are sending us. Looking at Jesse's face I agree that her total perception is Cameron has too much influence.

IMO Jesse is an actor bad guy. She did lie to Derek's face about her non-mission. This is contrary to an earlier outbreak from her "EVeryone has a mission!"


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OT: I guess I don't have to tune into "House" to watch lies.
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06SRT10
18. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 11:39 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:39 AM EST
"I think Derek's memories in "Dungeons & Dragons" support Jessie's claims that Cameron was influencing John. While Derek was dreaming, we never got to see John. He kept asking "take me to Connor" and "I want to speak to Connor" but they never did - until Cameron came to get him. Jessie's claims about how "he wasn't talking to anyone anymore - just her" fall right in line with what we saw in that episode, so I don't see the basis for refuting it with "Jessie's a liar." They're ALL liars:
"
I'm just saying for a possibility, when Derek is asking to be taken to John it might be possible that John is already dead or dying and Cameron has taken over because she is the only one he trusts and has been around for a long time. It may be possible Cameron has full control because she is now incharge
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notty22
notty22
19. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 11:43 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 30 2008, 11:43 AM EST
In the future John is probably afraid of meeting people in a large area because of the chance another one of his friends is now a cloned Terminator. By meeting people one at a time with Cameron screening the person there is less chance of another infiltrator getting right to the president. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
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