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Mike70056 |
Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 1:35 AM EDT
I have read some interesting questions about timelines from fans of the show. Thus, I would like to present some possible answers for why things are evolving the way they are in TSCC. I'm not trying to explain the weekly story. Rather, the direction the storyline is taking, as a matter of the war between Skynet and the future John Connor. This is a mental consolidation of thoughts from many bloggers much smarter than I, from too many sources for me to completely remember or quote. First, there are several people asking how apparent contradictions between the movies and different points in the series are affecting the future. The answer appears to be pretty complex, in that different timeline seem to be coming into existence as the franchise pushes forward, whether this might mean alternate dimensions or simply alternate shapings of the timeline of the same dimension are valid questions. The original movie set a single timeline in which John Connor's assassination / creation is molded by moving through time. Without the terminator moving back to kill Sarah Connor, there would never have been a reason to send Kyle Reese back, and thus, never a reason for that version of John Connor to be created. There was an excellent discussion thread on this I read on the Kryptonsite forums that several bloggers contributed to a few possibilities. Many were the chicken or the egg discussions that musing how John or Skynet could have existed at all. I would choose to agree with what Arnold's Terminator brought up in T3, that "Judgment Day was inevitable". Thus, what you saw in the first movie was an already altered timeline where Skynet could develop sooner and Kyle Reese had developed into John Connor's father. Both would have existed prior to any timeline alteration, but the changes in time made both happen differently and slightly sooner. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?
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Mike70056 |
1. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 1:35 AM EDT
Each major change is an alteration to the timeline yet to come and affects what comes next. Thus, the person who traveled back in time has a perception of an unchanging future that paradoxically will no longer exist as they knew it.Placed in the movie terms it would probably look like this: Timeline mark one: Skynet evolves, creates judgment day, deploys terminators through time, and eventually loses to a human leader named John Conner, only after sending a terminator back to kill his mother Sarah Connor. John figures out the last move by Skynet and sends back Kyle Reese. Kyle dies after being with Sarah, who concludes Kyle is John's Father and takes her famous picture. The hardware left over hastens the arrival of Judgment Day through cyberdyne industries and there is a better prepared Skynet, which may have passed information to itself through the original chip. Timeline mark two: Skynet evolves faster, Skynet has better prepared resources, it creates Judgment day, deploys more terminators through time for secondary objectives, and eventually loses to a now older man named John Connor, who now was fathered by Kyle Reese and was mothered by a more prepared Sarah. This is the earliest possible point at which the original movie could take place. Kyle's viewpoint, that only one terminator was sent back would be a reflection of John Connor's need to keep information secret. At this time according to Reese, the most advanced units are the T-800. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Mike70056 |
2. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 1:36 AM EDT
Timeline mark three: Skynet evolves faster, Skynet has better prepared resources, it creates Judgment day, deploys more terminators through time for secondary objectives, and eventually loses to John. This is also the earliest possible timeline for T2. The T1000 is now possible and deployed as a single prototype. This marks the earliest revealed evidence that John knows how to reprogram terminators. Because of the death of Miles Dyson and the events of T2, T3 and the TSCC are only possible because of the precautions taken by Skynet at this time through secondary agents insuring its evolution and correct backup creation. The AI was self aware enough to predict it could be destroyed in the past just like it was trying to do to John and it was. It should also be noted that the victory was harsh enough to push the eventual date of Skynet's creation forward to 2007.Timeline mark four alpha: The universe of T3. Timeline mark four beta: The universe of TSCC. Of course, there could be a million or more timelines between any one of these. The war itself however, isn't simply limited to the attempt to kill John Conner and never has been. It is more complex. It is the struggle between John and Skynet to: consolidate resources, starve their enemy's resources, secure their past, and cut the enemy successes short in an ever evolving war. There is a tendency to see this in the metaphor of a single chess game, which is oversimplified. For much like real life war, it is a complex balancing act, more like playing many chess games, all at one time, over multiple objectives. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Mike70056 |
3. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 1:37 AM EDT
Or, perhaps even better, it is a giant chess board in which every single move is won or lost through a separate game. Only John and Skynet completely know who their pieces are and each is ultimately trying to decapitate the other by eventually eliminating the King, in the future or in the past. The failure to do so means the complete destruction of what each holds dear. This was brilliantly brought up several times in the series. The pilot episode begins with John bringing his mother back into the fight by changing the time of her death. "Heavy Metal" shows Skynet losing critical materials for later construction of 530 terminators. "Vick's Chip" would have given a newer Skynet an improved infrastructure that was lost. "Automatic for the People" ends with a vital energy plant of the human resistance lost. There are more examples if you think of them. Unlike in a real life war, each progression of timelines has meant a better focus of what was needed to achieve victory. Thus, there has been a progressive expansion of missions and personnel needed. The fog of war is progressively lifted as each; progressive iteration of either knows more about themselves and the other side. This makes the control of information one of the most hotly contested and vital strategies of the war. John and Skynet have been fighting in a struggle that would be the mental equivalent of wrestling in quicksand. Skynet's focus on John being the only human trained enough after Judgment day to lead the resistance might be correct. Thus, it may be correct that it only needs to kill John to win. Skynet's paradox is that each failed set of attempts has not only evolved it, but its enemy as well. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Mike70056 |
4. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 1:37 AM EDT
The future Cameron and Derek remember, will no longer exist if they survive into it. It has already been altered and that previous future has already placed all of its players on the field for this timeline.Back to the earlier chess metaphor, it's also interesting to try and see what the future John's moves are. Right now, he's moved his mother back into play at a critical time, with Sarah being, as Cameron described, "You're the best fighter he knows... The best." Cameron remains a mystery with multiple directives and moves already carefully dictated to her by John. It is as if he has carefully altered time to place two Queens on his chess board. Skynet's pieces and objectives remain mostly a mystery. The series does a great job of showing what Skynet is up too in the background. That's my collected understanding on it anyway. What do you think? 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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nachi-wan |
5. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 10:13 AM EDT
excellent article!!! i have only one question... did the resistance really lose the powerplant? they can gain it again... as they once take it from skynet
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KrelleK |
6. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 11:09 AM EDT
"Or, perhaps even better, it is a giant chess board in which every single move is won or lost through a separate game. Only John and Skynet completely know who their pieces are and each is ultimately trying to decapitate the other by eventually eliminating the King, in the future or in the past. The failure to do so means the complete destruction of what each holds dear.not sure of cause but i think it nuclear plant was, saved not lost to resistance, they just has to take it, from skynet as showed, in 2026. because then that battle in 2026 was waged then the past battle for it, had also been there, had it not, and at that time became AFTP Do you find this valuable? |
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KrelleK |
7. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 11:13 AM EDT
"excellent article!!! i have only one question... did the resistance really lose the powerplant? they can gain it again... as they once take it from skynet"as i said i thin actually they made sure the powerplant could be taken, which kinda strikes me as a bit odd, for skynet AFTPéd it, when it knows it will lose it, in 2026. would it for Skynets sake not have been better for skynet, if they had made demonstrations against the powerplant, so they could get it locked down Do you find this valuable? |
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KrelleK |
8. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 11:15 AM EDT
"as i said i thin actually they made sure the powerplant could be taken, which kinda strikes me as a bit odd, for skynet AFTPéd it, when it knows it will lose it, in 2026. would it for Skynets sake not have been better for skynet, if they had made demonstrations against the powerplant, so they could get it locked down "and then denied the resistance a way to get electricity and warm water Do you find this valuable? |
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bot[CS1.6] |
9. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 11:28 AM EDT
Time travel is too confusing! Mike you make many great points, good post.
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Mike70056 |
10. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 8:32 PM EDT
"excellent article!!! i have only one question... did the resistance really lose the powerplant? they can gain it again... as they once take it from skynet" The T1001 was able to replace a human staff and human control room with an AI that ran the facility without error in "Automatic for the People". The first Terminator movie was skynet removing all the human controls from our strategic missile defense and military air core. Thus, the implication are chilling. If John can pull a victory out of his hat on this one with the new factors from the past, he's checkemated me. So my answer is I hope so. I just don't see how. Do you find this valuable? |
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Mike70056 |
11. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 8:35 PM EDT
"and then denied the resistance a way to get electricity and warm water" It might even have denied them the ability to make time travel happen. The air turbine generators used in "Dungeons and Dragons" might have been enough, but if not, John in the future might have a real problem on his hands if Skynet cuts him off of every power source that wasn't nuked. Do you find this valuable? |
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Mike70056 |
12. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 8:35 PM EDT
"Time travel is too confusing! Mike you make many great points, good post." Thanks. =) Do you find this valuable? |
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kymeric |
13. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 21 2008, 10:01 PM EDT
For all we know the show will end with Sarah dying and John transporting back in time with his memory wiped by temporal shear just in time for him to star in Terminator 3.
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admitch |
14. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 22 2008, 10:26 AM EDT
Did anyone notice that the human time travelor brought a long list of times/people/places that John/Sarah should know about? This included "Alpine Fields", etc..This travelor was shot coming through time and eventually died. It could indicate that the time machine was being fought over. He also knew WHERE to find Sarah and John. This would indicate that he is from the 'changed' timeline. Obviously, Skynet is active in trying to change the past in a big way. This would create a significant war in the present as well as present! Do you find this valuable? |
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Mike70056 |
15. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 22 2008, 6:49 PM EDT
"For all we know the show will end with Sarah dying and John transporting back in time with his memory wiped by temporal shear just in time for him to star in Terminator 3." Always possible, but since the producers have already said they purposely made this a separate timeline from T3, I'm not sure they would. Do you find this valuable? |
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Mike70056 |
16. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 22 2008, 6:56 PM EDT
"Did anyone notice that the human time travelor brought a long list of times/people/places that John/Sarah should know about? This included "Alpine Fields", etc.. Those are really good points. Perhaps the timeline is up to mark 5 or mark 6, because of what's going on in the story. Do you find this valuable? |
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TackDriver1956 |
17. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 3 2009, 9:14 PM EDT
The Charles Fischer paradox is where I get lost.1. Future Fischer has already completed his mission before Jesse clocks him. Young Fischer will be caught through his fingerprints. SkyNet / Caliba now has the keys to the military computers. 2. Derek doesn’t remember being tortured by Fischer. He wasn’t tortured in the timeline he left, or He’s blocking the memory. Derek’s torture of young Fischer may be the cause of Fischer torturing Derek in this cycle. 3. Cameron tells Derek that she does NOT recognize Fischer Either she left before Fischer became a central figure in teaching the terminators how to interrogate humans by torture, OR She’s lying. 4. Jesse remembers Fisher torturing Derek AND the miscarriage on the SSN Carter. She left from a later timeline cycle than Derek 5. Cameron knew about Jesse losing the baby. Cameron likely also knew about Fischer torturing Derek. Why did she deny knowing Fischer? Do you find this valuable? |
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Mike70056 |
18. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 3 2009, 9:26 PM EDT
"The Charles Fischer paradox is where I get lost.5. The change comes from the Cameron that Jesse knew and the Cameron that was in the past. They weren't a match. Derek and Cameron were most likely from the same timeline, but the changes forshadowed in automatic for the people ended up being the future that Jesse was from. 4. yes 3. Cameron in the past does not. 2. Derek in the past was not tortured by Fischer. The new Derek seen at the end of the series may not have been. 1. Yes, the young fisher you see becomes the old fischer; however, the old fischer and the fischer who will grow old are likely from alternate timelines as well. Those are my best guesses with the information at hand. Hopefully, that helps. =) Do you find this valuable? |
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TackDriver1956 |
19. RE: Terminator Temporal Wars 101
Sep 3 2009, 10:19 PM EDT
"5. The change comes from the Cameron that Jesse knew and the Cameron that was in the past. They weren't a match. Derek and Cameron were most likely from the same timeline, but the changes forshadowed in automatic for the people ended up being the future that Jesse was from.5. I thought this too, but Cameron in the past told Derek "I'm sorry for your loss", and explained that Jesse miscarried his baby. I don't think Jesse told Cameron this in the past, but in the future, before either travelled back. Derek had said his goodbyes and travelled back in time, before Jesse's mission on the Carter cost her the pregnancy, so Jesse had already rescued Derek from Fischer. Cameron would have known about both Fischers torturing Derek, and Jesse losing the baby. Our Cameron should have recognized Fischer. 2. The new Derek in BTR was the teenager John and Derek watched playing ball with even younger Kyle. He will be the one to be tortured by young Fischer, who had his fingernails pulled out by our Older Derek. I've convinced myself that Cameron was lying about Fischer. My next question is why? Did she do it to prevent Derek KILLING young Fischer, to minimize damage to the timeline? Does Future John use those same backdoors to attack Skynet? Curious. Do you find this valuable? |