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Discussion: Cameron and JohnReported This is a featured thread

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Grimpuppy
Grimpuppy
Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 10:15 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 10:15 PM EST
Just wondering.... How many of you think that some weird romance may be brewing between John and Cameron? 0  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
Grimpuppy
Grimpuppy
1. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 10:22 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 10:22 PM EST
Let me go more into it... Do you think Cameron is going to learn feelings as a human or is she just going to be a feelingness machine forever. Would John possibly give his life to save her or mabey Cameron give hers to save Sarah cause she "cares" for John? 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
HF08
HF08
2. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 10:39 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 10:39 PM EST
"Let me go more into it... Do you think Cameron is going to learn feelings as a human or is she just going to be a feelingness machine forever. Would John possibly give his life to save her or mabey Cameron give hers to save Sarah cause she "cares" for John? "
Read my post in the can Cameron and John be lovers? My answer is probably no, unless she has capacity to feel fear.

Geeky
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Grimpuppy
Grimpuppy
3. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 10:52 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 10:52 PM EST
I know I saw it after it was too late LOL... I kinda expanded mine a little more then just Romance. Do you find this valuable?    

Xenomorphine
4. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 11:13 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 11:13 PM EST
Why emotions of fear, precisely? Do you find this valuable?    
Grimpuppy
Grimpuppy
5. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 28 2008, 11:19 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 28 2008, 11:19 PM EST
"Why emotions of fear, precisely?"
Why not regret or even hope?
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Xenomorphine
6. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 12:01 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 12:01 AM EST
Technically, 'she' shouldn't. Skynet has no need to give them those. Do you find this valuable?    
HF08
HF08
7. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 12:23 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 12:23 AM EST
"Why emotions of fear, precisely?"
Great question. Primarily, it is the prime emotion. Simple speaking, it is the most simple feeling an organism has. It is present in all organisms with limited sentience. This emotion could then evolve into more complicated emotions, into fear of losing or fear of not having. Eventually, new emotions could be possible.

Nevertheless, despite pyschological argument. Let us stick with science and sci fi, Skynet does show some level of free in trying to kill humanity. It puts it's machines on "read only". Clearly, a logical choice is self survival is a goal. Despite it's cold logic, it has some limited form of emotion, albeit very alien to ours.

Cameron is a cybernetic organism. We do not know what sort of organic chemistry she has either. Eitherway, I am saying the object must have a base emotion as a doorway to others. Despite appearances, it is an infant. Hence, should be treated as one emotionally.

I would use the notion of "failing it's mission" to see if there is any emotion at all. To get a real good grip on what I am saying, please see T2 special edition. When John and the T800 are talking in the weapons storage/bunker.

Geeky
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Xenomorphine
8. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 1:12 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 1:12 AM EST
I don't remember any point where Skynet is alluded to as ever having emotions. It's just a machine operating on a loop until objectives have been completed. Setting subordinates to such a mode is just a logical method to avoid any statistical rogue elements from arising.

The last film already pointed out that Terminators have no invested emotion if they fail to complete a mission. They just accept that they no longer have a purpose. :)
2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
HF08
HF08
9. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 2:33 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 2:33 AM EST
"I don't remember any point where Skynet is alluded to as ever having emotions. It's just a machine operating on a loop until objectives have been completed. Setting subordinates to such a mode is just a logical method to avoid any statistical rogue elements from arising.

The last film already pointed out that Terminators have no invested emotion if they fail to complete a mission. They just accept that they no longer have a purpose. :)"
It's sentient. In other words, self-aware. Perhaps a good movie to illustrate the differences in a machine collective consciousness and man's is seen in Colossus: The Forbin Project.

Skynet is a sentient being. Hence, it is motivated by the simple logical idea of wanting to exist. It started the war only when men tried to pull the plug on it. Hence, men are threats. Does it feel fear of men? I doubt it in the sense we feel fear. My point being is that, as much as a computer logic can allow, it definately does not "like" men.

All the terms we use for Skynet are in human context. I think it would be almost better to think of it as an alien intelligence. It is aware of it's own existence and it's own sentient being. That makes it dangerous and at the same time, I doubt it feels happiness/etc. I am trying to say, for as much as we humans can understand, it would reflect the behaviour that it doesn't like the idea of being terminated. That's all. Nothing more. It has purpose, to exist and be it's own master.

I think some are selling Skynet short. This is a good conversation. Some good points Xenomorphine.

Geeky
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ishta1
ishta1
10. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 2:43 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 2:43 AM EST
"It's sentient. In other words, self-aware. Perhaps a good movie to illustrate the differences in a machine collective consciousness and man's is seen in Colossus: The Forbin Project.

Skynet is a sentient being. Hence, it is motivated by the simple logical idea of wanting to exist. It started the war only when men tried to pull the plug on it. Hence, men are threats. Does it feel fear of men? I doubt it in the sense we feel fear. My point being is that, as much as a computer logic can allow, it definately does not "like" men.

All the terms we use for Skynet are in human context. I think it would be almost better to think of it as an alien intelligence. It is aware of it's own existence and it's own sentient being. That makes it dangerous and at the same time, I doubt it feels happiness/etc. I am trying to say, for as much as we humans can understand, it would reflect the behaviour that it doesn't like the idea of being terminated. That's all. Nothing more. It has purpose, to exist and be it's own master.

I think some are selling Skynet short. This is a good conversation. Some good points Xenomorphine.

Geeky
"
Skynet is a sentient being. Hence, it is motivated by the simple logical idea of wanting to exist. just what I was gonna say
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Xenomorphine
11. RE: Cameron and John
Jan 29 2008, 9:31 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 29 2008, 9:31 AM EST
Being aware of itself does not equate to 'fear'. :)

The closest ever demonstrated to anything like an emotion was in the, "I know now why you cry" and "this data could be termed pain" stuff. In the former, this was more likely to be an analytical process, rather than the capacity for empathy, which Skynet would have no reason to place in it. The latter both backs this up and is nothing but a cold attempt at analogy, for the benefit of those assisting it.

"Decided our fate in a microsecond..." That indicates it was coldly calculating us to be a threat and would no more 'fear' us than WOPR did in the film, 'War Games'. The 'tools' it had access to were military weapons and so it used them in the most efficient way. Likes and dislikes are neither here nor there. It was specifically DESIGNED to analyse and counter, in the context of a battlefield management system. It DID NOT have much in the way of choice! :) To Skynet, EVERYTHING is either a resource or threat. If it's a resource, it uses it. If it's a threat, it seeks to neutralise and/or eradicate it.

Simplistic and effective. But not indicative of emotion. It was engineered for nothing more, nothing less and would have no reason to explore anything aside from ways to increase its efficiency, which a machine would perceive emotions as getting in the way of.

It would have no more need to give its termination units the capacity for emotions, than we would give tanks. They serve the same purpose. They would just be more adept at infiltration.
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
12. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 14 2011, 6:33 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 14 2011, 6:33 PM EDT
I think it is possible for Cameron to eventually feel emotion. I don't think she feels it now. But if she spends more time with humans, she can learn more about such things. (She is very smart!) Do you find this valuable?    
I.Join
I.Join
13. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 14 2011, 9:22 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 14 2011, 9:22 PM EDT
"My CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer. The more contact I have with humans, the more I learn." - Uncle Bob in Terminator 2
...so, who knows...

This points remembers me to suggest everyone to view ALL the deleted scenes of the first two movies, because, after so many years, they're considered part of them, part of the background we're supposed to have.
If you don't want to remove the DVDs by the vacuum safety vault you're preserving them inside, use Youtube
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termi-ninja-tor
termi-ninja-tor
14. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 11:23 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 11:24 AM EDT
"This points remembers me to suggest everyone to view ALL the deleted scenes of the first two movies, because, after so many years, they're considered part of them, part of the background we're supposed to have."
My favorite deleted scene from T2 is the ending scene where Sarah is old and John is a successful politician. It indicates that they succeeded in preventing Judgment Day -- Judgment Day was not inevitable.
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I.Join
I.Join
15. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 5:16 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 5:16 PM EDT
"My favorite deleted scene from T2 is the ending scene where Sarah is old and John is a successful politician.
2. It indicates that they succeeded in preventing Judgment Day -- Judgment Day was not inevitable."
...that's an interesting "alternative" scene: most important deleted scene in T2 (IMO) is the chip removal one (it has been replaced with the one I quoted yesterday, while in the IMDB link I quoted in the same post, clicking on "quotes", you can find a transcript of the deleted version... that's why I thought to remember you about the deleted scenes).
If you also view the director/actors interview about the deleted scenes there's something of interesting about how that scene was made (did you all know that Linda Hamilton have a twin?), its meaning... and why they eventually removed it.
Here are the links to the interview on Youtube (19' 18" total) about many removed scenes in T2: part 1 and part 2.
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Gusar
Gusar
16. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 5:21 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 5:25 PM EDT
"My favorite deleted scene from T2 is the ending scene where Sarah is old and John is a successful politician. It indicates that they succeeded in preventing Judgment Day -- Judgment Day was not inevitable."
This one is not a deleted scene thought. It's not part of either the Director's, or the Extended cut. So while other scenes count as canon, this one doesn't.
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Xenomorphine
17. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 6:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 6:14 PM EDT
""My CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer. The more contact I have with humans, the more I learn." - Uncle Bob in Terminator 2
...so, who knows..."
Saying it's capable of rapid learning, isn't the same as it declaring it has emotions - or even having an intellectual base to qualify the statement. :)

A Terminator might well 'believe' it has emotions, but even that belief will just be an analytical conclusion based on available data. If it's aware of something which contradicts that, then it'll just revise that opinion and state it doesn't.

Remember, a Terminator is basically nothing other than a very mobile battlefield computer, primarily designed for eradication of targets, with a secondary objective being that of infiltration. A lot of people like to assume they have emotions, because they look/act human, but that's precisely the mistake which Skynet counts on.

Do they have the capacity to develop emotions? Possibly, but very doubtful, because that's just not how their architecture is designed. They can analyse, survive and make autonomous decisions, but that isn't the same as having emotions. They don't need them.
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Gusar
Gusar
18. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 6:25 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 6:25 PM EDT
"Do they have the capacity to develop emotions? Possibly, but very doubtful, because that's just not how their architecture is designed."
The entire franchise is based on a machine that went beyond it's design. Then, in TSCC, Weaver spoke of a machine "crossing against the light". Something that she herself is an example of. And at the end of that ep, we saw Cameron having such a moment.
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I.Join
I.Join
19. RE: Cameron and John
Apr 15 2011, 7:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 15 2011, 7:01 PM EDT
"1. Saying it's capable of rapid learning, isn't the same as it declaring it has emotions - or even having an intellectual base to qualify the statement. :)

2. A Terminator might well 'believe' it has emotions, but even that belief will just be an analytical conclusion based on available data. If it's aware of something which contradicts that, then it'll just revise that opinion and state it doesn't.

3. Remember, a Terminator is basically [cut]"
1. I don't remember why I posted that in this thread, maybe I returned to the wrong tab after I searched for the quote.
Anyway, I think you need to view again T2, the deleted scenes and the 2 links I previously posted...
They are NOT like us, but they're not so different. As that quote says, they have a neural net structure: who projected the brain copied an existing (biological) example... and I figure, they have been too lazy to modify too much the structure...
OK, a biological brain is also controlled by external (chemical) factors, but the base is the same...
Can they have emotions like our ones? I don't think so (but I'm not sure).
Does this mean they can't have emotions at all (maybe ones we don't know)? Absolutely no!

2. You could say the same about everyone of us... If an alien came here, he will probably ask the same about us, because we don't feel the emotions he can feel (and vice versa).

3. You need to view again T2, especially when Dyson or Uncle Bob talk, AND the chip's extraction deleted scene: neither Skynet can really control them. They different by us, but they're alive, like me and you...
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